Babies Sh*tting At A Funeral

Quinn: [00:00:00] One of those babies during the funeral is gonna shit themselves. And like, life just keeps going.

Welcome to Not right now, the podcast about parenting through all of this.

Claire: We'll be talking about slash crashing out over topics like screen time and vaccines.

Quinn:Banned books, and maybe just stop leaving your books on the car floor, dammit.

Claire: Climate change and five minute shower timers no one uses. And also turning off the lights.

Quinn: And apparently the end of sex ed and maybe sex. And is sex woke? I don't know. It's not an advice show.

Claire: It's a you're not alone and you're also not crazy for screaming in the shower kind of show. I'm Claire Zulkey from Evil Witches.

Quinn: And I'm Quinn Emmett from Important, Not Important.

Claire: You can find details in anything we talk about in the show notes or at our website, not right now dot show.

Quinn: Dot show. And if you like what you hear today, please share it with a parent who needs it or who might laugh and tell our kids to be quiet and [00:01:00] then drop us a nice little five star review.

Claire: And reminder, you can send questions or feedback to questions at not right now dot show.

Quinn: Hey, we got a guest today. Her name is Deanna Rondero. Deanna is a parent, of course, a registered, we should make someone who's not a parent listen to everything on this show and then just have them on and go, you know, what do you think? Anyways, Deanna is a registered dietician.

She's a meditation teacher and an end of life doula, most recently, which is really interesting and important to talk about, we think. Obviously without taking it too seriously, but if you're listening to this, you're probably part of whatever the fuck they call us, sandwich generation or whatever.

You got kids and boomer parents, and it's a lot, even on the good days, and really appreciated Deanna's context on all this and her perspective and also just yeah, you know, being a parent through it all. So please [00:02:00] enjoy this conversation.

Claire: We had a ton of snow like in early December and then it all melted by Christmas time and I was like, good. I was like, fuck a White Christmas. I don't need snow being drifted into the house and the salt and like the kids wet stuff.

Quinn: But your kids take on their, off all their shoes and their clothes before they come inside and they hang it all up. Right?

Claire: You know what I have to say, they're not even that bad. It's like the dog is part of it too. It is just even under your best circumstances, like it's still pretty disgusting. So I'll take this, whatever, gray, green stuff compared to, you know, and then I learned we only had one shovel, one snow shovel.

So I had the, I had to go passive aggressively angrily by snow shovels so that we could all buy some. So there's no excuse now for, you know, everyone should be shoveling. Like you should have a shovel in your hand at any time. So, anyway.

Quinn: Perfect. Anyways, welcome to the show. We're so excited to have you.

Deanna Rondero: Thank you for having me.

Quinn: Oh, of course. Hold on to that. We will try not to [00:03:00] ruin it the best we can.

Claire: So the reason why I invited Deanna onto the show is 'cause she knows my friend Erica Reid Gerdes, and Erica is a death doula and we can talk a little bit more about what that job is. And Erica also is in an amazing all female Beastie Boys cover band called Cheese Crafty. So she's just between those two things, one of the most interesting people. And I wanna give a plug that Erica is gonna be in conversation on January 29th with Becky Robinson about the book My Parents Are Dead. What now? So if anyone was listening to that and is in Chicagoland and wants to tune into that, come and see it. But, anyway, I asked Erica, I said, who else do you know who's in this space, who's cool? And would be fun to talk to, who's a mom? And she recommended Deanna. So, welcome Deanna, to our show. And tell us a little bit about what your work is lately and also about your kid. I know that's like two huge questions slammed together.

Quinn: Basically just say whatever you want. It's fine.

Deanna Rondero: It all relates, right? That's my work.

Quinn: Yep.

Deanna Rondero: [00:04:00] As well. I am a registered dietician. I primarily do nutrition counseling, education. I have my own practice that I've been slowly getting up for the past year. Takes a lot of work. So I work with people around, like eating disorders, disordered eating.

I also work with people with chronic illness. One of my other jobs is mainly working with people who are food insecure, so this is a lot of Medicaid, a lot of food stamps. I've been doing it for over 10 years and all here in Chicago, mainly the south and west sides. And so, over that time I've just seen how it all intersects around death, the body, grief, how we hold things in our body, how we're not nourished in so many ways. So, what I try to do is really hold space for them to heal and when I can give practical [00:05:00] gentle tips on what they could do to help support them.

Quinn: Claire, before we talk about dead stuff, can I ask a question about the Medicaid work? Because all the rest of my job is, you know, climate and public health and all that stuff. Food and water. With the education program, the big Medicaid or SNAP Ed getting cut, what does that mean for how you are gonna do your work? Do you imagine an influx? How do you try to fill the gaps? I guess it's such an insane question. Because you are now required to do the work that this entire program is doing.

Deanna Rondero: It's insane. And I basically tell people I don't know.

Quinn: Yeah.

Deanna Rondero: They're like, what am I supposed to do? And it's like, all your barriers are there and they're real, and I can give you more things to do, more places to go, but the reality is they're running out of food too. Like the pantries are running out of food. And I would get people all [00:06:00] the time, I just say, you gotta go to your alderman's, see if there's anything local in the neighborhood that you could find. So it's impacting hugely. It is hard because it's like, what can I give? I can't really give anything. And sometimes I'm just that transparent with them. Is that, I don't know.

Quinn: Well, thank you for being transparent and candid about that. It is, I think it's helpful to be able to say that at this point. It feels, probably a little, there's a more grownup word than fake, than to feel like you're ahead of the system, these enormous fundamental changes to programs that have supported a hundred million people to be like, oh, I've got the answer. It's like, no, you can take a second and be like I don't know yet. At least might do some work, you know?

Claire: And tell me, your daughter is a teenager, is that correct?

Deanna Rondero: No, she's 10. She just turned 10.

Claire: Okay. How do you suss raising a sassy 10-year-old with the work that you do that is very intensive and [00:07:00] you know, how do you suss that if she's giving you attitude, maybe she doesn't, maybe she never does this, but if she's ever not finishing her food or doesn't like what you gave her to eat, like how do you approach that in a way that doesn't completely bite her head off? Maybe I'm speculating, maybe you don't.

Quinn: We never do that basically, is what we're trying to say.

Deanna Rondero: I internally lose my shit quite a bit. She is a picky eater, I mean, she knows she's a picky eater. I try to make things that are new. I don't do it that often because time, right?

As a parent, you know, low on time, you're exhausted, you wanna give them a variety of foods, but at the same time, I don't have the fucking money to spend on it either. I don't have the time. I just need her to eat. And at the end of the day, that's kind of what it comes down to, you know? So the other night is a good example. I made something, I was like, okay, I'm gonna do this. I have [00:08:00] the ingredients, and it's called sopa de frideo. It's a Mexican dish I grew up on, and I was like, I think she'll like it. And she took two bites and she was like I like it okay. If I have to eat it, I will.

Quinn: That's a win in my house.

Claire: It's the one with the little noodles. Right? It's like a little noodle soup. Yeah.

Deanna Rondero: Like stars or letters or, yeah, I was trying to make it fun.

And I was like, well, that's all there is in the fridge now, so you're gonna eat it until next week.

Claire: Yeah. So good thing to know that you will eat it if you have to. 'cause you do. So that solves that. Yeah, I can only imagine. I mean, I could imagine snapping on them, like I went through a health crisis with my mom a couple weeks ago that I told you about, and I tried to be gentle with my kids.

But there was one day where my kids said geez. 'cause I asked him to do something really normal and I really bit his head off and I was like I called 911 [00:09:00] on my mom and you haven't even written her a get well letter and you are expecting Christmas presents, you know? And I just really went off.

So , if you can keep your going off internal and not external, then I tip my cap to you. 'cause I don't know how you would do that. Quinn, I'm sure you're the same way with your kids.

Quinn: Well, Claire, we almost named this podcast Screaming In The Shower.

Claire: Yeah.

Quinn: Which by the way, still feels like a win. Internally. I mean, I dunno how you do that. That's incredible. I am at the point now. I'm so tired most of the time. There's very little that remains internal.

Deanna Rondero: Yeah, we, I mean, we lost it over mac and cheese the other night. Like I started crying. I was at my wit's end.

Claire: My father-in-law who is in his nineties has what maybe what we can call ARFID by this point, but he has a, he is a picky eater to the point where it really like damages relationships, I would say.

And he not only refuses to eat foods, but he refuses to sit at the table with people and my, I didn't go with 'cause like this, I wouldn't [00:10:00] say that's the reason why our relationship is strained. That's part of it. But my husband had the exact same experience I had where he made spaghetti, very simple spaghetti like ground beef plus a jar of Ragu and noodles, like nothing, you know, out of this world. And his dad refused to eat it and sat in the corner and read a book.

You know, and it is such a, you know, knowing that can happen, like everyone is entitled to have preferences and things like that. But like I have a friend who's put her kids through eating therapy because her kids had such, you know, strong eating restrictions. And I was like, I hope you feel good that you put your kids through this therapy.

'cause this can manifest that whole life. And it is more than just, you can tell that it's more than just a, you know, I don't like mushrooms or I don't like onions. That it is like a whole, affects a whole spectrum of things. So I can imagine that causes a lot of stress on you to imagine and the things you've seen as well. So that's pretty rough.

Deanna Rondero: I don't work with kids for a very specific reason. 'Cause you're working with the whole system [00:11:00] then, and that's a bit more challenging. But yeah, ARFID is a really hard one because it is impacting their body and also just the aversions and you can't force it. I don't have a lot of experience with ARFID.

Claire: Will you define it for anyone listening who doesn't know what it is?

Deanna Rondero: Avoidant, restricted, avoidant, restrictive food intake disorder. From what I know is like just a lot of aversions, texture you know, getting grossed out easily at things. I mean, somebody who has more experience, maybe they can define it a little bit better because I haven't worked with people that much.

Quinn: And I mean, it seems like there's, you know, having been the child who I didn't want the, any of the food to touch on my plate, you know, and now I smash it all together and you know, you've got the kids who are, yeah, same thing. They're like, I don't like the texture of hummus. You're like, you will. I think there's like baseline stuff probably for everybody.

It's kinda like when you see other people's kids act out and you're like, thank God it's not just my kid. There's standard shit, [00:12:00] but yes, it probably eventually becomes clear, especially when they're 90, that it's become, you know, a lifestyle. Right.

Claire: Yeah.

Deanna Rondero: And there's a good dietician. Her name's Ellen Satter, she came up with this for parents. It's called the Division of Responsibility. So you're responsible for what the kid is responsible for. And that actually has been helpful for me to where you're not forcing your kid to eat, because that does create some distortion in their relationship with food. And so it's basically here's what I'm cooking. You have options, but this is it. And then they get to choose what they're eating from their plate. And if they leave things, great. If they don't, that's great too.

Claire: When my kid was a toddler, I remember seeing my cousin's son happily eating some pancakes like that she just tore up and sort of like casually put on his highchair tray. And my son just, it took him a while to get into eating and I took it so [00:13:00] personally when he wouldn't eat, especially because when you're a new mom, you can get swept away into these like peer pressure of make your own food.

It's so easy and it's nutritious and it's better than, you know, like this health halo of making your own mashed sweet potatoes, so much better than buying it in a pouch or whatever. And my son wouldn't do it. And it was so much beyond just him being picky that I felt so rejected and so angry at him that I remember like slamming the high, the tray, the high chair tray into the sink.

And like now in like in with time past that, I'm like, God, that was like such an extreme reaction. But it is more than just food, you know, and I did an article once about kids eating disorders and family therapy and it really does affect the entire family. Like it is such a hard disease to deal with for sure.

Deanna Rondero: Yeah. I made tamales with my friend for Christmas time and she's, my daughter's trying it and it's great. I'm glad she's trying it, but immediately she doesn't like it. And every time I give her something, especially, culturally [00:14:00] significant, that's close to my heart, and she doesn't like it. It internally breaks my heart and makes me really sad.

Claire: Yeah.

Deanna Rondero: I grew up on mac and cheese, Lunchable, bagel dogs, and I, you know, that's the thing. Right. Later on, it'll change.

Quinn: Yeah.

Claire: Yeah. Well, mac and cheese especially 'cause it's so fucking good. I feel like it's objectively good. And then again, media commercials. Read any magazine, there's a kid, like an image of a kid, like happily eating mac and cheese. So you're like, you are faulty if you don't like this wonderful mishmash of cheese and pasta.

Like what could be wrong with you? But yeah, it is hard business. Now I have kind of a random question for you. Maybe not, but you said that you lost your dad last year. Is that true?

Deanna Rondero: I did.

Claire: Okay, I'm really sorry to hear that. Did you get a lot of people giving you food to, you know, help you out and comfort you?

Deanna Rondero: Yeah, I got some. I got some. So me and my family were all scattered like California, Colorado, here. And I did get some people [00:15:00] coming to help and they were sending money. That was the thing that was most helpful. And I was like, that's good. I could just order food.

Claire: I was curious whether there was anything you ate or had that really brought you, either made you feel nourished or brought you comfort at that time. Like I know it, like some things can make you, you know, you can turn away from them and other things you're like, wow, I really needed this. I didn't even know that.

Deanna Rondero: A burger. Sometimes when I'm feeling destabilized from grief, I have to one, recognize if I ate, and I tell people this too all the time. That think about when you ate, and I have to do that for myself. And then I'm just like, what do I need? Something really solid, a little bit greasy and very comforting, that I could just eat with my hands.

Claire: Yeah. I had a friend who dropped off and this was just such a nice way to help, this woman said I'm making this chicken tortilla dish and my [00:16:00] kids like it. Can I make double and drop it off at your house? And she just put it in a very straightforward way. And I was like, that sounds great.

And there was something about it that I was like, this just hits the spot. It has chicken, it has carbs, it has cheese, it has beans, it has peppers and I just felt, for some reason that was the dish that like really got me through a couple of a hard times. Quinn, what do you guys, what's your, like when you're bereft? Maybe you don't eat when you're sad, but you know, if you do, what makes you feel better?

Quinn: I feel lucky to not have much of a sweet tooth unless it's like chocolate chip cookie related, in which case it's you know, all bets are off. Essentially. Claire, I've told you how my wife is one of those people that'll have a thin mint and then put them back in the freezer for a month, which is just.

Claire: Psychotic.

Quinn: It's so dark, it's so upsetting. My friend Jeff, who's definitely listening is the same way, who will frequently text me a picture of a cookie and say, this is my cookie for the week. It's just, you know, nightmare. So anyways I'll take down a box or whatever's available. It's the same reason I don't keep snacks in the office, and that's on non-emotional days.

There's not a lot of control, so [00:17:00] whatever's there, I will tell a story. So when we were in Los Angeles we lived directly across for about seven years, we lived directly across the street from Alex Trebek. Just, you know, what a hero, Nicest guy. He was the nicest guy and his wife is so wonderful and we were out of town when he died.

And we have these very good friends, this couple who don't have kids, so they're a little more flexible and they loved our dogs and so they were staying at our house. And my buddy, Seth, is a really fantastic cook. And he, you know, had met them various times 'cause they'd housesit for us a number of times and got to know them.

And he just woke up, heard the news and said, I'm gonna make them a lasagna from scratch. 'cause I don't know what else to do and who doesn't love lasagna. And also it is like tamales or something. There is so much, so many layers, figuratively and spiritually and literally of love that go into this.

He handmade the pasta and everything like that. And I remember he said he [00:18:00] just dropped it at the door and he was like, I'm not gonna take up space or anything. I just want you to have this if you want it. And his wife, Alex's wife came by, you know, a week later and just was like. No one else brought us food, like that got us through the first two days. And for whatever, you know, it's slightly different case, but she was like thank you. Because it is nourishing, right? It is, that is why you make food on a regular day. But I try to remember that's the thing. And you know, it's funny just to plug one other thing my mom participates in.

There's a really fantastic organization, I think it's called Lasagna Love. And you can sign up to just it's like a two-sided marketplace. You can just make lasagnas and people who need food can sign up that they need food and it can feed a family so well and you just deliver to their house and drop it off and keep going. It's a great organization. Lasagna Love.

Claire: That's great. I love that idea. And I love lasagna and no one in my family loves lasagna, which is very sad. 'cause you can't just have you know, you have to get like a whole ass lasagna. But Deana, so one thing in my past life, I forget if I told you this. I used to [00:19:00] be the assistant to the editor in chief of what used to be called the Journal of the American Dietetic Association. Now it is the Journal of American Nutrition and Dietetics. Right. So you're a registered dietician And it was funny because my editor, my boss at the time, was one of the co-creators of the food pyramid as we used to know it. And it made me laugh because this woman, I worked for her for 10 years and I saw her eat one time.

I saw her eat half of a roasted tomato once, and other than that, she only ingested black coffee and Jesus and exercise and science. Oh, and also when I was pregnant, I'll never forget this, like she made a point of telling me that my baby's stomach was this big, so that I had no excuse to just eat 'cause I was pregnant. Just to, you know, be like, just in case you think that you can eat whatever you want, you can't, you fat bitch.

Quinn: There is a lot going on there.

Deanna Rondero: Wow.

Claire: Anyway, all that is to say is that there's a new food pyramid in town and I'm [00:20:00] curious to hear what the, like what the scuttlebutt is among the dieticians right now?

Deanna Rondero: I, you know, I got your notes yesterday and I was like, oh, shit, I gotta look this up. That was my first response. To be honest, I am, it's a time thing, but I'm also on the, not on news or social media a lot for my brain's sake and my health, I get impacted very easily. But when I started work today, somebody posted the AMD, the academy, their stance and what they said.

And after reviewing it, it's all problematic. It's all gonna make our life harder, like what's going on with the new dietary guidelines. And there are things where it's great, like whole food you know, less saturated fat, less sugar, and nobody's denying that. That's stuff that we're always trying to do, right. More fruits and vegetables. Yay. That's our war cry.

But there are things too where they're talking [00:21:00] about saturated fat and then they're emphasizing more beef, more whole milk, more like butter or certain type of butter, I don't even remember, but it's yeah, like stuff like that is confusing and it's problematic. On a whole, I don't know how much I actually give a fuck about what these people are saying when the same day ICE is killing people.

Claire: Right.

Deanna Rondero: Like, how does it, how does this actually matter? This is, it's all elitist. It's white supremacy. It's awful. It's like you're not actually taking care of anybody. Where you don't have food stamps. People aren't even able to get food. So. Sorry, that's my whole spiel. It's more infuriating and insane. It's absolutely insane.

Quinn: Well, you have nothing to apologize for. The theme of this show is trying to parent through all of this and do your job through all of this and answering, it feels insane to answer questions about the food pyramid, which is so important, however, imperfect it's [00:22:00] always been every version of it, this and that.

When stuff like yesterday happens, and like you said, you can't take away food stamps and SNAP Ed and kick people off Medicaid for paperwork and then just go but you should eat more red meat and we're gonna, you know, we can kill anybody anytime you go. Just like, none of this is real, you know, it's just, it's awful.

Claire: Like you said it's very hard to suss your feelings. 'cause on the one hand, well there's three hands, right? On the one hand you're like, great, like less processed food. We can all sort of get behind that. But also on the second hand, we all have kids and you know, we're all gonna give like, you cannot raise a kid, I think, and work a job and give them no processed food.

I just think that's impossible. There's something, even if it's the best, most organic, like you gotta, there's something that's gonna come in a package to make your life easier. But then on top of it, these folks who promote this mentality are not looking out for poor people and brown people.

This is white people who want like a, to promote some kind of ideology that is not representing the [00:23:00] entire population as a whole. But it's the part that's rooted in a tiny bit of truth that like almost feels the scariest and most dangerous, where you're like, well, we can't write this all off, but just a lot of it basically.

And I was thinking because I was like, I'm not gonna do anything differently 'cause of this. But we'll see what happens with the rest of the country. I don't know. So does the association say we have to agree, stick with this. Are they gonna promote, you know, do what you have been raised, you know, as a nutritionist or what you've learned, you know, that might go against this, these new teachings or these new guidelines?

Deanna Rondero: Well, they do put in the statement that there are things that are problematic, so they're very clear of what we support. And it's gonna make it harder for us to do our jobs in this way. And I think I listened to your last podcast where somebody was talking about the Academy of Pediatrics and they had to put out a statement too, we don't support this. I think a lot of the organizations like that have the scientists back there [00:24:00] are putting that out.

Claire: Oh, I didn't even, I mentioned this on the notes, so this time last year, and I'm not even gonna prioritize this, and thankfully we have a nice pediatrician who told me not to worry about it, but our 10-year-old son, he got a finger poke test at his annual and he has a comeback and do it again to get a lipid test. And my mom was, you know, in the hospital and then in rehab and it was Christmas break and I was at the library checking out some books for my son before he went outta town. And I got a call from the pediatrician saying your son's lipids are like in the 600 range, so we're gonna get, yeah. And he is like, did he fast?

And I said, well, he took his ADHD medication. He chewed gum, but otherwise, no, he didn't take anything. And he's like, I wanna get him to a preventive cardiologist. And again, I was all over the place and I was like, is he gonna have a heart attack at age 10? Is that what we're talking about here?

And on the one hand I felt shame over yes, he does eat hamburgers a couple times a week and pizza, but also on [00:25:00] the other hand, he eats raw red peppers and apples like, and carrots and you know, Cheerios. And then I remembered like I have, I take a statin.

My dad has high cholesterol, but I just was like, I can't deal with this right now. But you know, thanks to the food pyramid, now we're gonna have to give him more red meat on top of this.

Quinn: You have to, that's the deal. You have to.

Claire: Yeah, that's how you solve that, is with more of that kind of stuff. And my, the pediatrician was like, this is a preventive thing because like basically you get them now because when they're young adults, they're not gonna give a fuck.

So get it looked at now. But I said, does this have to happen like right now, because our insurance premiums went up 750 a month, you know, and of course because we work for ourselves, we have kind of goofy insurance. And so the one cardiologist he recommended is not anywhere in network, you know?

So I was like, can this wait? And he said yes, thank God. 'cause I was like, I don't have it in me right now to worry about a 10 year old's cholesterol right now. Like I can worry about his B.O. and that's about all I have.

Quinn: Right, the more immediate [00:26:00] problems.

Claire: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I don't know. So, Dea, tell us a little bit, total palate cleanser, what is your daughter into, what's the scuttlebutt like? What's the word? What does she, like her class care about right now, back to school? What have they been talking about?

Deanna Rondero: Well, she is really into dragons and Legos, that's her stuff, that's what she's into. Which is not it's out of the norm for most girls. Yeah. She likes Percy Jackson. So I'm watching like the Olympians with her. Yeah, that's pretty much it. Oh, she's very into football.

Claire: Oh, really? All right.

Deanna Rondero: Yeah. These are the things that she is super into. And, you know, without getting too personal for her, I don't wanna share all her information, but I think, you know, at this age, fourth grade things are starting to happen, like with friendships, you know, boys, things like that.

Claire: First of all, I interviewed a girl [00:27:00] for one of the other newsletters I write who is a 14-year-old girl who is really into Legos. And that was kind of like the beginning and end of the story was that she's a sporty girl who was also really into Lego. And I was like, do you think you are the typical Lego person? And she said No. And I said, what do you think is a typical Lego person? She's like, well, I don't wanna be mean. And I said, it's okay, just be honest. And she said, I think quiet and a boy. And I said, yeah, you know, that's the, you know, typical I would say.

But she got into Lego during COVID and it was like a form of therapy for her basically. And I think it's like a form of crafting, basically. And you know, you hear about couples that like adult couples who Lego next to each other. And so, you know, the downfall of Legos is where do you put them all, you know, and do you keep them all together and you know, all nice and stuff after the fact.

Quinn: Did you hear Jonathan Bailey say his idea of a perfect date is to just do Legos?

Claire: That's adorable.

Quinn: I mean, it's every, he's perfect.

Claire: Do you do Legos, Quinn?

Quinn: Do you want me [00:28:00] to go and get the Legos in the office that I'm not allowed to have at home?

Claire: Oh wow. Okay.

Quinn: I have the unopened, the new Game Boy one. Oh yeah that's coming.

Claire: Okay.

Quinn: We're gonna do that. Deanna, your daughter does, she's into the Percy Jackson show, which is great. We're watching that as well. My daughter's 11 and I think you're moderately alluding to, I think she might be into it for the hero, for various reasons. I just, I was like, I didn't know you were watching this. She's like, oh, I'm watching this. Is she a reader? Does she like the Percy Jackson books?

Deanna Rondero: She reads a lot.

Quinn: Have you guys seen? 'cause all three of my kids are really into them. Rick Riordan, the author, besides all of the books he wrote, he has his own imprint where he does other cultures sort of versions. He basically helps publish other cultures' versions of those kinds of stories. So, out of Latin America, out of Africa, you know, same sort of heroic myth building, they're all fantastic.

Deanna Rondero: Send them to me, please.

Quinn: Yeah. It's, it'll have a little logo on the book, but if you look up Rick Riordan and [00:29:00] Imprint, there's so many and it was a great way for my kids to be like, oh, it's not just like Greek Gods.

Like, how do we go into all these other ones? They're pretty incredible. So can't recommend those enough if your children are insatiable like mine. So let's talk about death.

Claire and I talk a lot about, again, like. What do they call us? The sandwich generation or whatever, you know, there's 7 billion boomers living on the knife's edge at this point.

They're all on statins, they're all doing this and that. We're living longer than the other health span. We're paying incredible amounts of money in the last third of, I mean, honestly, the second half of life. I mean, everyone our age is on something of some sort. It all just got more expensive, like you said.

We don't let people die gracefully if they want to or their family wants to or whatever their wishes usually are. And we've also got kids and everything on the TV. How did you sort of make your way into this world, this sort of work? Because it's [00:30:00] related, like you said, it's all holding space and nourishing and helping people be full people even towards the end.

Deanna Rondero: Yeah, I think a couple years ago I was going through a heavier time where there was a lot of grief and it wasn't death related. And I noticed people's absolute aversion to grief. They don't wanna touch it with a fucking 10 foot pole.

And it, because we're not shown how to, we avoid discomfort, we avoid pain. It’s very human. So I think there's a lot of compassion to hold around that in multiple ways. But in that grief, I started to just get more interested in death. And I took a training to become a death doula. So that's about the extent of my training at this point. You know, I've [00:31:00] sat at some death cafes. I have conversations with people around it. But through my work I noticed a lot how much people were in grief, like around their bodies or even dealing with the death of a loved one sometimes. And so it really just kind of sent me down a spiral in a good way of wanting to face it, look at it because it deserves to be honored, death, grief and sat with. And we need to do it with people. When it's alone it's really, it gets really dark. And it helps to kind of lift some of that.

Quinn: Feel like half my work is saying the words, fortunately, and unfortunately, there's so many more people exposed to death in grief over the past five years than folks could have ever imagined. With the sirens in the street and New York Times saying a hundred thousand people with tragedy.

And then we just kinda moved on. There are no memorials, we didn't grieve for them publicly. And so many people had to grieve alone, like you're talking [00:32:00] about, if they were allowed to leave their house or not. If they have preexisting conditions or they're immunocompromised or they're worried about someone else, it's just we keep it churning and like you said, we don't talk about it.

We do a terrible job talking about it, much less like in a proactive, thoughtful way, participating in grief with people, you know, obviously there's various, in my past life I was a religious studies major. I'm like a pagan, atheist, monster. But you know, every belief system has their own version of dealing it, even if people were less quote unquote religious than they used to be.

But all in all, like you said, not only do we not embrace it and participate in it, we really shun it. And that's not healthy, much less helpful, you know?

Deanna Rondero: Well, also what I had seen like in the healthcare system too, 'cause a lot of my work centers around that. It's you know, health and living and kind of keeping alive at all costs, right? People go in the hospital, they're gonna keep doing what they need to do to [00:33:00] keep them alive.

Regardless of quality of life, unless there's like a DNR in place already. And something that I noticed in one of my jobs I worked. It was a long-term acute care facility, and so most of the people were on two feedings. So seeing people there, like in the hospital where they probably weren't gonna wake up and was just blown away where it's like what is this?

People don't, they're not prepped for it. I mean, especially in certain areas in Chicago, it's like a lot of these people there, a violent accident happened. They're not prepped for death.

So we're talking about like the systemic issues here and I noticed that so much and so there's a bigger grief in that as well, where it's like this individual person who's stuck in this in between state and they don't have anybody, or the family [00:34:00] doesn't have like the information. Or sometimes families want to hold on and that's, you know, that's up to them. But it's just a lot swirling that got me thinking about our aversion to death. I don't know what the answer is except to just talk about it more, you know?

Claire: Do you know what broke my brain? So I discovered my mom semi-conscious. I actually had to cancel a podcast recording. And I texted Quinn and this other guest, I was like, if I don't get back to you, it means shit has gone down. And then shit went down. And so, my mom was in the ambulance on the way to the hospital and my dad was on a business trip.

So I called him and I was on the way to the hospital not knowing what I would encounter with her. And I asked him, they have known each other since sixth grade. And I asked him, what have you talked about in terms of advanced directive? You know, if they're asking me whether they wanna intubate her, you know, or do CPR on her. And he told me they'd never spoken about it, which just blew my [00:35:00] mind that you could live, know someone for 70, 65 years and never even just as a thought experiment, talk about that, and I was like, I thought it was funny in a weird way, and I was furious. And I also was like, I can't be mad at him right now, so it was just like a little opening into like how much, the lengths people will go to avoid discussing this.

I wanna back up for a second. Just really quick, for anyone who's listening who's not familiar, will you go, just go over what a death doula is and also what a death cafe is?

Deanna Rondero: Yeah, so a death doula, they can help support people through grief, like emotionally. They can help practically, they can help with things like advanced directives, estate planning. There's something called sitting vigil, which is like prepping for the active dying state. There is legacy work. I'm sure there's a bunch more that I'm leaving out, but it's kind of all encompassing, like what [00:36:00] do people need support with?

It could be for the person who's dying, it could be for the family. And so the way I kind of wanna work with it is a lot more of the emotional support around it. Also sitting vigil, if I could ever do that, like actually practice that and do that with people is one area that I feel like I would wanna do a little bit more to kind of bring more beauty and ritual back to the actual like death process in that way.

Claire: Yeah, and I've heard too that a big part of the work is that family may have differing opinions or like upsetting versions, or maybe they wanna settle scores or have unfinished business. But then as the dying person, you wanna do it your way and not involve other people's bullshit. And it's nice to have a person there who's like, I'm here for you for this process and not gonna be influenced by the out of state daughter, for instance. So I heard as like a person like who shows up.

Deanna Rondero: Advocate. [00:37:00] Their advocate to kind of help relieve that tension because who has the energy to do that when they're dying?

Claire: And a death cafe is what?

Deanna Rondero: So it's a place to come and just talk about death. It's not a grief circle, it's just to have conversations if you're thinking about it more and to de-stigmatize it, I think, and there's some put on here in the area. I think there's a lot of virtual ones too.

Claire: Yeah, I've seen them at the library near me, the public library. We'll have them often. I mean, I know we can't choose how we die and I think we all wanna die peacefully or without realizing it. I think about my cousin's grandma who died while she was checking her email, she just died in her office chair.

Quinn: Oh.

Claire: That's great. What a lovely way to go, honestly. And you know, I was reading, I dunno if you saw the article I sent you from the New York Times about the different ways to do body, you know, disposing. And I was like, oh, if you donate your body to medicine, to science, like that really takes care of a lot of stuff [00:38:00] without a lot of you know, money. But have you thought very much about, you know, if you could choose certain ways to go do you know what you had in mind about what you could control that you would do?

Deanna Rondero: For my process. yeah, we had to write it out when we were doing that training. And it's, yeah, it's pretty powerful. Like I would want my family and close friends to be around, you know, if I had the privilege of dying in that way. Right? Like kind of actively dying, like not something sudden. And I don't know, that seems weird to call it a privilege, but I do think it is a privilege to be surrounded by loved ones in that way. I don't know, maybe some people wanna go alone and that's fine. I don't, I wanted people to be there. I wanted there to be laughter. So even if I wasn't really there, put on my ridiculous sitcoms that I like to watch and have that in the background. I don't want people necessarily coming [00:39:00] to, what is it? Not settle scores?

Claire: Take care of unfinished business?

Deanna Rondero: To repair. To repair. Yeah.

Claire: Say the unsaid.

Deanna Rondero: Like at that point it's fine. Like it's all good, you know. Food. I want that to be there, would like to be somewhere close to nature, if that's possible. And then after that, yeah, I have ideas of what I'd want for a service. I would want more like spiritual and indigenous practices brought in. Also a party.

So part of me too is get a fucking DJ and dance. Go have fun. So like we're planning my dad's celebration of life and it's nice, I look forward to it because you need a place, you need to be able to have a ritual and in honoring somebody.

And I think that's been one thing that's hard is we haven't had the time to put that together, until now and we are gonna have a place to go put that and celebrate who he was. And he was [00:40:00] very loving and very overly friendly. Just he would talk to everybody and so he would want a lively gathering. I'm like, I would want that too.

Claire: That's nice. Quinn, have you had given it much thought or have you seen or been a part of deaths where you're like, this sounds I would take, I would shop from this part, or I would not prefer this part?

Quinn: Right. It's kinda going to other people's weddings where you're like, we're definitely not doing that, but I'll take that. Like a s'more station sounds like a great idea. Let's make sure we do that. If it doesn't break the bank. I mean, it's funny, you know, I remember taking a class in college called Death and the Afterlife.

And again, like that's where was sort of my first indication in a lot of this. At the same time, like most of my grandparents were passing around that time, so, and they were all very different. But you know, my one grandma was very Catholic and there was that, and then, you know, my two grandfathers had sort of the, they were World War II vets, so you had the military part of that, even though they'd been out of it for 50 years and various pieces.

And they all had little bits of you know, potpourri of dementia here and there. And that's obviously such a big part of how [00:41:00] people are passing now and will in the next 20 years, certainly increasingly, is do they remember making a DNR? Do they remember their estate planning? Do they remember even who their children are, you know, it's unpredictably, predictable. Certainly. You know, my office mate who I share an office with, we've known each other since we were two. And we joke, joke, but also doesn't seem like a bad idea that like, if one of us was, you know, going to be definitely cut down by something terminal, probably unexpectedly, but I don't know like what the age threshold is, where you get to the point where you're like, well, that's just is what it is.

We decided we would like to be towed out to the largest wave we can find with a little cyanide in the tooth. And just tell people like, this is great. That's better than when you're checking email. You know, it's like you said, I'm in nature. I'm doing something I love. I don't want to endure all the rest of what they just told me is gonna happen.

We, like, [00:42:00] why would you wanna watch me go through that? Why would I want to go through that? And of course, like I am very much the, what's the Hamilton lyric? Why do you write like you're running outta time? That's how I tend to live. I've had a lot of loss and so that has always influenced me.

I like to think I'm getting a little better at that. So I do wrestle with the mathematical, oh, but you would be losing this time. But I don't know, like again, we've all, I think whether you're a death doula or not, at this point been partial to or adjacent to it being a very rough process for a lot of people involved.

And I hope I would make it easier for folks. You know, like you said, have a party. Make it an excuse to do that. How often do you see everybody, if you can do that? Make it easy on my kids as much as I could, whatever it is. Try not to yell at them on the way out. You know, give them that gift.

You know, they've been waiting their whole life for it. I don't know. So yeah, that, I guess that's my philosophy on, I don't think I have something specific. I love the idea of [00:43:00] something involved in nature for sure. But yeah, my wife and I both thought about, we did estate planning 12 years ago, something like, right when we were about to have our first kid finally, and, you know, a good estate planning attorney will be like, okay, now we gotta do the wills and do you want a DNR?

And you gotta look at the standardized form and check the boxes. And you're like, what? I can't, again, you feel this aversion, but she's like, I'm gonna sit here until you do this, because this isn't for you, this is for everybody else, basically.

And then you're like, I did it and we wanna put it away and never think about it again. But then you kinda always think about it a little bit, you know?

Claire: Yeah. Well, like my mom, I was in this state of pre-grief. I was actually got to, I wanted to talk to my friend Erica, our friend, like beforehand about how I'm like, my mom is not the same as she used to be and I'm sad about that. But she's still walking around and people tell you to cherish your loved ones, but you're like, what if I'm sad about the version that they're in, even though they are still like, you know, have a life. And then I discovered what happened. [00:44:00] She was the first person I called and I kind of couldn't stop, I was like in this weird state of laughing and angry at the same time. 'cause I was like, as Quinn can say, I had been calling this for a long time, whatever it was that happened, and I felt this weird state of feeling validated basically. But, so now we're in this state of, well she, I feel like she from 20 years ago would not like what her life is like now. But there's also no one to say that, you know, she likes reading, she likes to see her grandkids. She seems like she's in a good mood. She eats her food. So you know, who's to say that is like not a life to live?

So that's like an uncomfortable truth I think that we like, I wouldn't wanna live life this way, but you're like, but you're we're saying that from this perspective and not if we were further down the line where life might be different, but not necessarily bad. And I don't know, I have nowhere to put that, those feelings.

But also that's okay. I feel like I'm also sober now, which is like whatever. There's the whole like feeling your feelings statement, which is I just laugh 'cause I'm like, well that sucks. Like feeling your feelings is like [00:45:00] crap. But also. Whatever. There's no good, there's no like ideal scenario for it.

You know, sometimes you're like, well this just is shitty and you know, I'll just wait for the next thing to distract me. Basically, like here we are talking about death, which is like not optimal, but also we're not online like reading comments about, you know, terrorism. So that's like kind of good that we're talking about a real thing.

Quinn: The bar's low. Yep. It's both important and we need to talk about it more, but also the bar is very low. Deanna, I wanna mention that 'cause I have a friend going through it where his dad, his mom died early in COVID. One of those filled with life was in a church in the first month and everybody is singing and you're like, that's the diagram we all saw online.

You know, and then his dad, as a lot of caretakers do, suffered heavily and went really downhill. Incredibly smart guy. And now is in assisted living and really doesn't remember them much at all, but they're, whatever drug they're giving him, first of all, I would like it now. Because he was like, he's [00:46:00] just having a great time.

But the person I was attached to is not there. And how do you, and again, I know you're, you know, kind of just getting in this, but maybe just you as a person and as a friend or a mom, how do you navigate helping the family go, like Claire's saying about her mom, like she seems like she's having an okay time.

Obviously it could be much worse. We've all seen that, while you have to almost disassociate from saying goodbye to that the person that was, you know, the relationship that was, how do you balance that?

Deanna Rondero: Like how did I do that for myself?

Quinn: For yourself or how would you coach other people through that to say they get to live their life as it is now? Even if they're not aware? They think every day is the same. Like I said, if she loves reading and playing chess and watching her programs.

Deanna Rondero: Yeah, it's a balance I would say. I mean, I've had one experience, and this is food related because I have worked with people who are [00:47:00] dying and I've had to like kind of talk to their family. And they're talking about food where it's well, I want them to eat this. Or they are trying to still watch out for their blood sugars 'cause they're a diabetic. Or things where it's almost, it's almost like I would have to kind of tell them like, it's okay. Like you're also doing the best you can. And just kind of remind them that we're not in a keeping them alive process, you know? And with this one patient I had, I just remember telling the daughter that, like going through all the foods, everything that she had questions about, and then at the end of it, it was kind of just like, it's okay.

Quinn: Yeah.

Deanna Rondero: So it's almost like that space holding for their anxiety about it because it's just such a weird place to be, you know? In terms of like bigger than that, sometimes I'm guessing [00:48:00] it would depend too on the belief system of the family, on the person. If I were able to get to know about what they wanted or what they believed, you know, spiritually speaking that can help put people at ease. But again, I kind of have to know where they're at with that. So, at least for my family, I think that was one of the pieces that was really helpful in all of that. The spiritual, religious aspect of it was an anchor.

Claire: The thing Erica has kept telling me is that she's keeps saying, you're doing everything exactly right, which is kind of funny, you know, 'cause I'm not doing anything or I feel like I'm just doing what you're supposed to do, or I don't know, but I. I think the joke or the irony is we all don't know what we're doing so that therefore it is exactly right for you, you know?

Or maybe just that I'm not murdering anyone, you know, or like really seriously abusing myself. That is like all you can do. But [00:49:00], you know, and I think for me, laughing about it with other people who've been there has been really helpful. That like I can, you know, call my mom a bitch, basically be like this bitch.

Like she doesn't even know what happened and she's just having a good time not worrying about how I feel and that I can be around people who like, laugh about that instead of saying like, how could you say that? You know, or how could you know, anything like that. And or talk to other moms because I think about, I'll talk about how mad I am at my parents for not doing what I think they should do to prevent this. And I take it out on the kids, and I have a friend who has three kids, and she's like, it's so hard. It's so hard not to snap at them. And I just feel better, you know? I mean, I know again, that's all the best you could do, but just to hear someone else say yeah. Or not say think of the kids, or, you know, whatever. Try not to be mad. Does your daughter, does she have a lot of thoughts and questions about death? Or does she not focus on it too much?

Deanna Rondero: I don't think she focuses on it too much. I probably, because I talk about it a lot. [00:50:00] So, or I, you know, I am vocal about it, so you know, anything mom really likes.

Quinn: You basically normalized it enough that she was like, I am not. No. Thank you.

Deanna Rondero: Yeah.

Claire: I'm over it.

Deanna Rondero: It just, it freaks it freaks her out. Like I probably, I don't know. Or she's just little and doesn't really fully know what to do with all of it. But we talk about my dad, you know, and she usually just talks about the happy things and the memories but I'm pretty, yeah, I'm pretty vocal with her about a lot of stuff. We don't shield her from anything.

Claire: Yeah. My kids are like, surprisingly, I feel like I was really scared of death and scared and I would think about my own death more than my parents dying when I was a kid. 'cause it's very self-centered. But we took our kids to a wake in the fall and that was their first time seeing a dead body. And I had never, I didn't know if that was gonna be happening ahead of time or not. So I didn't prep them at all. And my younger kid, I think he was joking. I couldn't [00:51:00] tell, but he kept claiming that he saw her move and I was like, well, either you're joking, it's just not funny. Or it's like vibrations from the floor.

And I was like, also, it's the, whoever did the embalming must have done a great job, honestly, if you thought you saw her moving. But I was kind of prepared for them to have nightmares and questions about it. And they did not. And I, on the one hand, I'm like, wow, what a couple of like basic boys. But also I was like, you know what?

Good, fine, happy for them that they're not terrified about that kind of stuff. Quinn, are your kids worried about that very much or not too much?

Quinn: They were more worried a couple years ago we lost two, two dogs in two years or something. And that affected them. And it was kind of during COVID and stuff like that, which they were pretty young, so we didn't show 'em the headlines much, obviously. And we didn't lose anybody specifically to that.

Now they, you know, talk about it. We tried to do the thing. There's a great, I will find the kids books we picked up at that point about it that were really helpful. But, you know, there was a [00:52:00] kid at my oldest son's school who died of this crazy viral infection sort of suddenly, and that affected him.

I think he was a little numb about it. I'm not sure we did the best job dealing with it, but now, yeah, I don't, it probably doesn't come up as much as it should, which sounds like a weird thing to say about death, but at the same point, that's kind of what we're talking about here, right? Is it's happening everywhere to everyone all the time.

And it's gonna happen to, we currently live with, Deanna, we're extremely lucky. I've got my mom down the street, two houses, and currently living with my mother-in-law. And they're both great and they're best friends. It's ridiculous. We set it up that way. Like my mother-in-law's 84, my mom is 70 something, and we moved back from LA, I grew up here and just said, well, we got 10 years basically until the kids leave somewhere.

Prison, college, whatever, family band, and with the grandmas, so let's try to do this. And it's been great. It's been five and we're very lucky, but that's, you know, how time works. So I am interested in like, how do we, [00:53:00] if not professionally doula them but not make it a surprise, not make it so impactful to them. For these like people they're so close with much less anything else that's unexpected.

Deanna Rondero: Yeah, I think it's like exposure because kids can kind of handle a lot like how you said your kids didn't really bat an eye and okay, you know, if you kind of talk to them about it and include them, like basically when people do die, let them go to funerals. I think that kind of stuff is important.

I remember I took my daughter to my grandmother's funeral. She was only a year and a half, two years old, but I just remember walking down the like church aisle with my cousins and a lot of us had like newer babies and toddlers and we were all carrying our kids. I just, I remember that so distinctively and I thought it was so important, so beautiful. It's important to bring it all in and to not fear [00:54:00] it in that way.

Quinn: And it's like superficially, it's also such like a, like yes, right now, not right now thing we talk about, which is like one of those babies during the funeral is gonna shit themselves. And like life just keeps going and you have to be part of that and be reminded of that. And hopefully you have a grandparent who would think it's hilarious, like my grandparents would've found that incredibly entertaining. You know, and so I'm like, you're well, you're welcome. I did this for you.

Claire: That's a great, I think a nice way to, to wrap things up unless you know, if there's anything else that you, I don't know. I think talking about babies shitting at a funeral is beautiful and great. I mean I can, also, if you want here, like I went to a memorial service a couple years ago for my great aunt and they handed out cookies shaped like hot dogs because their favorite restaurant was Portillo's. And they had talked about cremating her and scattering her ashes at Portillo's, but they were like, we're probably gonna get in trouble for that. So we had the Portillos hotdogs in honor of her and I just love that. I just thought that was such a lovely [00:55:00] memory, you know, and kind of funny, sort of irreverent, you know? And who doesn't love Portillos? You don't, probably Quin. 'cause you don't even know what that is.

Quinn: I know what fucking Portillo's is. Come on. I'm aware, I'm not a monster.

Claire: They're the top of the food pyramid.

Quinn: That's right. Turns out now I have to eat them. It's not even a fucking option. Throw away my whole, the whole lifestyle. It's out the window. Gotta do what RFK says. Deanna, what questions haven't we asked or did you think you might get the chance to actually express or engage in when you agreed to talk to us?

Deanna Rondero: Oh, I don't know. I think that was good. That was like about running the gamut of what, the questions you sent and I think it was good. I think one thing that's important to me around like grief is just that it's there all the time. And so trying to hold space for it, like for ourselves, and it's messy and it's really fucking gross.

And I think that's one of the biggest things is like with emotions. Like I am a feeler. Big, like feeler, and [00:56:00] so I am like a mess a hundred percent of the time. And I guess I kind of like it now going into that space even though it can be painful, but finding people, there are people who could sit with it if it's needed, you know?

Claire: I have a question for you actually. I mean, this is more just on your personal take, but I had the very sad experience last year of going to the funeral of a child. And the parents were people I'd gone to high school with and it was this odd feeling of feeling like a high school reunion. But then we’re all there for a child's death and which is horrible.

And it was just like, we're old enough now that I think we could understand and grasp that it was, it is awkward and there's no one way to be at something like that. But what do you tell people who are maybe our age, who are kind of like entering this new world of way more funerals, memorials, where you don't know how to be?

Is there a way to be at a funeral? Like how do you, when you're like, I wanna say hi to someone and I'm [00:57:00] happy to see them, but we're so sad at the same time. Like, how do you present yourself or talk or something like that for someone who doesn't know, you know.

Deanna Rondero: I don't think there is a perfect way. I think sometimes it is just showing up. And just, I don't even have the words 'cause I think people are trying to figure out the right thing to say or like they wanna fix it. Like it's in us to wanna help people not feel pain. But I think the first thing is to know that's not gonna happen, you know, is let there be uncomfortable silence.

Let there be awkwardness or how you mentioned the person bringing the lasagna. It's this is all I could do right now. And yeah, but just like showing up and sometimes asking about it. 'Cause on the flip side too, I mean, I've had my own moments of like, why aren't people asking me more about this? Also, I don't want people asking me about it. So it's just this completely irrational like [00:58:00] feeling where it's. It doesn't make any sense. So yeah, it's just show up I think is really it.

Claire: We're all doing everything exactly right. After all,

Quinn: Right, right. Thank God. Somebody tell my kids that. I just had 2 sort of timely things just to finish up. So obviously, and, you know, frame this as objectively as possible, which is we have a men problem in this country at least, and a young men problem in a thousand ways.

And it's very complicated and it's obviously, again, not women's jobs to guide them or fix them or anything like that, but women are being affected by it and men are being affected by it. It's also fucking toxic and messy. And a big part of that is not the only part, but they don't talk about any feelings, anything like that.

They don't spend time together, this or that. And there's two really interesting examples that I think about. And again, you know, I lost one of my best friends when I was like 25, 26, something like that. He was 29. And how our friend grew, it was childhood friend, how we all dealt with it, how we're all stealing, deal with it like 16 years ago and with kids, and talk about him and this [00:59:00] and that.

And my favorite soccer team is Liverpool. And I lived over there and went to the games and love them and ups and downs and all this. Well, right before the season this year, they won the title last year, unexpectedly, brand new coach. The whole team sort of stuck together from this other coach coming and the right before this season, high hopes, their 29-year-old striker dies in a car crash with his brother.

And they've been not good this season. And part of that is probably objectively attributable to the fact that they finally actually made some changes in their lineup and brought in, you know, some old guys retired or moved and they brought in some new studs. They also lost one of the, again, objectively soccer related, lost one of their best players to a fucking car crash.

But also, these are all men who are under the microscope as it is. They are all by default between the ages of basically 20 and 26. And are dealing completely publicly and privately in a thousand different [01:00:00] ways with the loss of one of their best friends. And I'm really thankful for the commentators and folks out there who are like, of course you would like fans, you would like your team to be doing better, but maybe we can use this as a moment to show like how much these young men are probably being affected.

And maybe we should talk about this more because this happens to everybody all the time. You know, and I thought that was interesting. It remains, it continues to be compelling. One of the guys, again, it's been six months, whatever, one of the guys, Scottish guy, you know, he's been on the team forever.

One of the vice captains and Scotland made the World Cup against all odds. And they said, how does it feel? And he said, all I can think about is my buddy Diogo, because. We always talked about how amazing it would be to make the World Cup together and he just broke down in tears on camera and you're like, yeah, this guy's affected every fucking day.

And the more they can talk about it, hopefully that breaks through the insane chaos of these men being told they're not enough, unless they're completely [01:01:00] gendered and terrible people. And the flip side of that is, did you guys see, I don't know how anyone has missed this at this point. The Conan O'Brien interview with Will Arnette talking about Conan's parents dying?

Claire: Not yet.

Quinn: Okay, so last year both of Conan's parents died in 48 hours. I think the dad was kind of expected and the mom was not. I'm not gonna give any of this away. I think people have listened, we'll put in the show notes. I would love if you both went and watched this like two minute clip of him doing a conversation like a month ago with Will Arnette talking about what happened over those 72 hours and how Conan grieved then and is grieving now to show that again, like maybe knowing the person really helps and what they would've wanted. And knowing that the people around, whether it's a funeral or you've said the words out loud, people, it's gonna be a celebration. That helps to set the tone for folks if you're like you said, so privileged to be able to determine any of it. Right. But if you can do that ahead of time and tell your friends, I listen no matter how it goes, [01:02:00] I want this to be a celebration, whether it's tomorrow or in 50 years. That helps.

But it's really interesting to me to examine those and look at 'em and go I hope we can continue to learn from these people speaking out about it. 'cause like you said, nobody talks about it. So maybe it would be better. So anyway, those are my last things. It's not about a baby shitting themselves at a funeral, but whatcha gonna do.

Claire: Love it. Thanks Quinn.

Quinn: You're so welcome. You're so welcome. By the way, remind your kids if you could today, that at one point they shit themselves and they will not believe you. It's incredible. I've had that conversation a lot recently.

Claire: I will actually, I'll remind them at your kids shit themselves and we'll see what they say.

Quinn: Great. Great.

Claire: Deanna, one last question that's not related to death, but before we sign off, what's something good you had to eat recently that just hit the spot?

Deanna Rondero: Oh God, what did I, it's been a while because I have been just living off of what I have until I could go grocery shopping again. But probably I am obsessed right now with tamales because I have right near me, a tamale [01:03:00] shop, so I made them, I had them myself, and then I go and buy them like from right near me. So that was probably a couple days ago.

Claire: Nice.

Deanna Rondero: It was really good. It's very like comforting food..

Claire: Quinn, you had a good breakfast sandwich this morning?

Quinn: I had a pretty good breakfast sandwich, four scrambled eggs, a little piece of sourdough, some salad, and some avocado. Just smashed it all together and shoved it in my face. I made a really good soup recently. I can send you the recipe too. It was pretty hearty. It was from a few years ago, I had a woman on the podcast and she's this amazing cook. She calls herself the Korean Vegan, amazing cookbook. She put out a soup recipe a couple months ago. It's like white bean, kale, plant-based sausage or do whatever you want, potatoes, fantastic and obviously carrots and all that stuff. Very nice winter meal.My kids hated it.

Claire: Good. Well, everyone needs to eat something good, so I'm just glad that people are.

Quinn: Yeah. What about you, Claire? You have to answer the question.

Claire: Steve [01:04:00] made turkey sandwiches yesterday and I told him he makes my favorite turkey sandwich. It's nothing special. It's just like my mom had a, she once said no sandwich tastes as good as one that someone else makes for you. And that is just true. Like he just mixes it with ranch, no, thousand island. Lots of lettuce with cheese. I cooked some bacon and a lot of turkey. So, yeah, good old dad turkey sandwich, yeah. All right, Deanna, thank you so much for being on this with us and talking about the most essential things, death and food. And we're gonna put a link to your website in the show notes. If people wanted to like Zoom with you, you know, if they found you on your website, do you only talk to, work with people in Chicago or do you work with clients who are outside too?

Deanna Rondero: No, I work with people outside of Illinois, so as far as nutrition counseling, like medical nutrition therapy I am licensed in Wisconsin, New York, Oregon, and New Mexico. And then as far as like death doula services around that, I work with people from anywhere.

Quinn: Do you mind also sending us [01:05:00] where the death doula class or certification or whatever it was you sent along and any information on like death cafes, like we could look it up, but if you have a great recommendation, I think that'd be really nice.

Deanna Rondero: I'll send a link of where I got the training and then, yeah, death cafes and I can also send a link to Ellen Satter. I don't know if parents like that as far as food, I feel like that might be something that is helpful.

Claire: Thank you. Yeah, people are always struggling with kids and eating. Thank you so much for sharing your time with us, and I hope that, I don't know, this year is not, it doesn't keep going the way it's been going. I don't know. Let's Go Bears, like, let's say that.