I Had My Petty Boots On (And I Liked It)

Quinn: [00:00:00] I will frequently say things like, you're gonna want to get on that bus. Let me break it down for you. You don't want to be here on the other side of eight o'clock.

Welcome to Not right now, the podcast about parenting through all of this.

Claire: we'll be talking about slash crashing out over topics like

Quinn: TikTok time limits, and the collapse of local news.

Claire: Have you done your homework and have I remembered to ask you if you've done your homework? And other existential questions.

Quinn: It's not an advice show.

Claire: It's a you're not alone and you're also not crazy for screaming in the shower kind of show. I'm Claire Zulkey from Evil Witches.

Quinn: And I'm Quinn Emmett from Important, Not Important.

Claire: You can find details on anything we talk about in the show notes or at our website, not right now dot show.

Quinn: Dot show. And if you like what you hear today, please share it with a parent who needs it or who might laugh and tell their kids to be quiet. And then drop us a nice little five star review.

Claire: And reminder. You can send questions or feedback to [00:01:00] questions at not right now dot show.

Quinn: Our guest today, we had another guest, they keep coming back, is author and journalist and memoirist Nefertiti Austin who has written a lot of things, Motherhood So White: A Memoir of Race, Gender, and Parenting in America. And her latest is She's Just Spirited: Parenting a Neurodivergent Child And The Diagnosis that Changes Everything. Something Claire and I talk about and think about all the time. She offers parents empathy and advice from her personal experience and experts in the field. Claire, why else did we get this lovely person on the phone today?

Claire: Well, Nefertiti is really honest and funny. She's a California based writer. She's also an adoptive mom. And she has a great perspective about just raising her kids with empathy and honesty. And we talk about petty boots and when you put them on and you should listen and go check out her [00:02:00] books because she provides a perspective on parenting that frankly is needed.

And we need more of. So, we're happy to have her make us laugh and give us her perspective and check out her book.

Quinn: Let's go talk to Nefertiti.

Claire: Why have a son if you can't borrow his headphones?

Quinn: Yeah, that's what they're for.

Nefertiti Austin: He didn't take 'em with him to his dorm, so apparently he didn't need them. So they're mine now.

Claire: Nice. Yes, they are.

Quinn: Good for you.

Claire: Is he at, he's at Howard or Spelman. Remind, remind me where he is at school?

Nefertiti Austin: Hampton University. Yes. Spelman is a women's college.

Quinn: I'm in Williamsburg. I'm about 20 minutes north. Love, love Hampton. I grew up playing in drum lines and music and went there for a lot of stuff. Just an incredible place. It's awesome.

Nefertiti Austin: Ok, so you know.

Quinn: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hampton's awesome.

Claire: What year is he?

Nefertiti Austin: Freshman, he just started. Yeah, he's an architecture major.

Quinn: Cool

Claire: So how's it going? What's his roommate situation? What's the word?

Nefertiti Austin: Everything's good. He's [00:03:00] been lucky. He went to the summer program, his roommate is from Cincinnati, so summer was great. And then his current roommate, military kid, but seemed like they lived between the Carolinas and Virginia and just nice family. He got there and very quickly got a girlfriend. I was like, what's happening?

Quinn: Hey now. Okay.

Nefertiti Austin: A little soon for all of that, don't you think? But it's okay.

Quinn: It's chaos.

Claire: That's fun. What was it like when he was leaving? Because I always hear that kids are kind of jerks right before they leave for college, but it's part of the process of separating themselves, the cult soiling the nest. Did that happen?

Nefertiti Austin: No, he was pretty good about it. It was time. I mean, you know, I felt like I gave all that I knew to give, and so it was time to find a new mentor and all of those things. So the only thing is when he came back after that first five weeks of freedom, it took him about a week and a half to really kind of adjust because he had been [00:04:00] doing his own thing and no one was telling him what to do, and his sister was on his nerves, and I had to remind him, she's 12. You left, you've grown up a lot, but she's still 12.

Claire: Yeah. I remember that very well. 'cause I remember coming home and I'd get a phone call back in the, you know, olden days when there was a house phone. And my dad would always say, who was that? And I would be like, none of your business, you know, and going out, like leaving the house at nine, which I would never do now.

But things like that. It is a hard adjustment. And I, my ADHD son is a younger kid and I'm like, I think it's gonna be hard for him when his older brother moves on to high school next year or college. 'cause he always wants to know what he's doing. Even when he is mad at him. He's obsessed with him, you know?

So, that vacuum. How's your daughter doing, being the only kid at home now? How's that been going for her?

Nefertiti Austin: Well, she really misses her brother. And from time to time, she'll go in his room and stretch out on his bed and watch his television, or she'll put his clothes on, which are way too big for her and just to feel close to him. And every now and [00:05:00] then she'll just burst into tears. I'm like, what's happening?

And she was like, I miss him. So I'm like, well call him. You know? So he's been really great. He's very responsive to her, unless he's in class and he'll call her back and he indulges her. And I do hear them on the phone and I'll hear him say if you're not gonna say anything, I'm hanging up. Because she'll just sit and she'll just stare at him.

Quinn: Aw, that's sweet. I love that.

Claire: That's adorable. That must like, fill your heart like that is great. So, congratulations on the book. How is the promo tour going? How has life been, especially this book compared to the first book?

Nefertiti Austin: It's a very different experience, and I've heard, tell, so now I'm experiencing it. So the previous publishing house, so Source Books really did a lot, like a lot of pre-marketing, marketing. I got to go all over the country a couple times and Bloomsbury, I guess 'cause it's a multinational publishing house or what have you. Not so much.

Claire: Yeah, I've [00:06:00] been there. I feel like book writing is kind of like child rearing, where I think maybe I've said that to you, where you're like, it's up to you to make of it what you will, you know, you're like I put myself out there. I hope it means something to somebody.

So Quinn and I both have, you know, we both have kids with ADHD, but both of our ADHD kids are boys which is, you know, one difference. But Quinn, I don't know if you bought many books about ADHD, like while you were, you know, earlier on in your journey, like how many references you, you checked out?

Quinn: Yeah, we tried to you know, it was relatively new to us which is both ironic and I guess not a surprise considering my wife is the most undiagnosed one of all who has now gone through it and is ah, yes, got it. Check, check, check. So we, yeah, we really try to, as usual, you know, really try to take the most holistic science-based approach to building our knowledge and understanding of it as we possibly could [00:07:00] from the history of how we got here with diagnoses and why now. And you know, like anything in the health industry now, so much of not everything by any stretch but there's a lot of, for instance, increased number of cases of a particular cancer for instance.

But that's a lot of times because we move screening up 10 years and we've gotten better at that particular screening. So there's a lot of variations on that. So we tried to really understand it before we even got anywhere close to okay, what kind of, you know, flavor might his be, who might be the best person, you know, what might be the best package of talk therapy and medicine or even then what kind of medicine?

So, I can look up whichever ones we got again, it was about five years ago, six years ago, something like that. But then we also got a couple of books for him and stuff, you know, that were kind of like kids' books of hey, here's, you know, from that perspective. But he was a good, always a good sport about it.

Claire: Nefertiti, tell me about what your journey was just in terms of the book, before we even talk more about your kid, what did you not see in the landscape in terms of references that you're like, I'm [00:08:00] gonna take it upon myself to put out a new reference in the world and do the work in addition to raising these kids and, you know, maintaining my career. Where was the gap that you saw that you could provide this?

Nefertiti Austin: I think I saw two gaps. One was girls. I found like a lot of stuff about women. So Quinn, you mentioned your wife and so women getting diagnosed later, but I wasn't really seeing stuff about girls because the stereotype of ADHD is really based upon boy behavior. And so, you know, I'm like, well, somehow these women have gotten to a point where they recognize they have ADHD or something's going on.

So there was a gap. And then the other gap that I saw was with what happens when you have stepped down in care? It's great when you can afford to pay for all of the things, but if your insurance changes, you move or anything like that's a very different [00:09:00] experience. And so I wanted to really kind of talk about those things.

And then the stuff I always talk about, race obviously is important to me because girls, Black girls are treated differently when they, you know, stop sort of behaving or they behave in unexpected ways. And it seems to me it's never you know, maybe something's going on. It becomes more of this child. And then you fill in all the blanks of the stereotypes.

Claire: Yeah, not to generalize, but my son is ADHD combined type, and he is very stereotypical, or he was, in terms of throwing himself around and like making mouth noises and you know, having a temper, being very competitive, but I did watch this movie, this documentary called the Disruptors. And there was a woman who I think, she was Indian maybe, but she is a doctor and her husband is a lawyer or something. And she talked about how her daughter sort of didn't adhere to these certain, you know, goal setting and obedience. And they just talked a little bit about how girls, they [00:10:00] manifest differently with them than boys. So can you talk a little bit about the differences?

Nefertiti Austin: Yes, I saw the Disruptors as well. So the stereotype for girls who have ADHD is that most likely it will be inattentive. And so she will be quiet and not bothering anyone. I mean, you almost forget she's in the room and usually she's very sweet. And even if her grades aren't that great, the red flags don't necessarily go up until a little bit later.

It's oh, maybe she just needs a little bit of time. Lots of excuses are made, maybe around academics or she's shy, so maybe socially as opposed to kind of diving into, well, perhaps she's inattentive because she isn't focusing, she isn't able to focus. My daughter, like your son, has combined type. So she was sitting under the table, turning cartwheels, the whole nine.

She had a lot of attention. And so, was definitely no denying that something was going on. And I often [00:11:00] feel very strongly that had she fallen into the stereotype of girls being very sweet and very quiet and just not really bothering anyone, that it would've been missed for a long time. I just would've figured, oh, instead of, wow, she is super spirited, I would've thought, oh, she's a little spacey. That's my little space cadet. And not realize the damage that would have caused, you know, later on.

Claire: Yeah I think the word spirited is very, we had a book, and maybe you've seen it, called The Spirited Child, and some part of me thinks that's the book for parents who aren't quite ready yet to go, start looking for a diagnosis of ADHD. They're not quite ready to get there.

And I think spirited is sort of like a bridge, you know, between, you know, just a typical child versus, you know, a fullblown kind of diagnosis. So, how old was your daughter when you got serious about getting a diagnosis or getting her tested?

Nefertiti Austin: She was almost six.

Claire: Oh, okay.

Nefertiti Austin: Yeah. So it was kindergarten.

Claire: Quinn, how about you?

Quinn: Doing the math yeah, seven, eight ish. I [00:12:00] think one, we could have done it earlier because it was pretty evident in sort of later preschool, early kindergarten, But we didn't feel informed enough and two, it's very easy to look at little boys and be like, they're just, they're being idiots. You know, which was entirely possible. They are still that way. In addition to that. I had, you know, again, like I have boy, girl, boy, and it's a, you know, they're wonderful, smart, sweet humans, and also Neanderthals. But then COVID hit and so we were both watching it happen live for sure. I mean, Zoom school was a nightmare for all of them but for this child it was incredible. I mean, this guy was under the desk in 10 seconds.

Nefertiti Austin: Yes.

Quinn: These poor teachers. When it really clicked for us, and I think Claire and I've talked about this a little bit before, but where it really clicked for us was he, over the course of the Zoom school time, he became more self-aware that he was [00:13:00] unable to pay attention and have the executive functioning that other kids did, which was surprising that he picked up on it. Helpful, I think, and again, we try not to just ride him, but we would have someone like sit quietly in the room to try to nudge him back this and this. But it was over and over.

But again, you know, these poor teachers, 30 3rd graders on Zoom, no one knows what's happening. Like it was difficult for them as well and he could feel being singled out. Our real trigger was not just that, 'cause we also, two other kids, younger kids in Zoom school, was when he started to get very down on himself about it.

And that's where we went. Okay. We've been trying to educate ourselves, but clearly like our rituals and the things we're trying to do are not enough now. And probably from our understanding of how this goes, definitely not gonna be enough when we get to 10, 12, 13, 14. So, we need help to help, you know, Jerry McGuire, help me help you.

So that's kind of how it came to be for us, which [00:14:00] again, was a little weird during COVID, but we, you know, thankful for the resources that folks have put out there like yours. And that we were able to get the help and like you said, be able to afford, not that I haven't driven a couple hours to try to find Adderall over the past couple years.

Nefertiti Austin: Oh yeah.

Quinn: But at least we've been able to afford it as needed. So that was our journey summed up.

Claire: Tell me a little bit, Nefertiti, about what you knew or didn't know about ADHD before you adopted your daughter? Or even just like before you became a parent and what your knowledge was, what your assumptions were and you know, I don't know if you knew people who had a kid with it or they had it themselves. Just curious like what your exposure was before that.

Nefertiti Austin: I didn't have language to describe it. I mean, not till later. I obviously had heard of ADHD and I think I thought it was, you know, someone who just couldn't sit still. Someone who was kind of all over the place. And like thinking of my adult friends, for [00:15:00] instance. People who'd have great ideas and just couldn't close a deal, you know, just couldn't execute a plan.

And then in children, I just thought, okay, you know, a child who's hyper and bouncing off the walls. And I didn't understand beyond that. I just had a very surface sort of idea of ADHD. And then when my son was in lower elementary school, I can't remember which teacher had asked me, well, do you think he has ADHD? And so I thought, well, no. And I spoke with a friend of mine who's a professor in education, and she was very quick and she was like, no. And from her perspective, she's like you have a Black boy in a predominantly white private school. And so often it isn't even intentional, but white teachers will throw that label out there. For whatever [00:16:00] reason. And so because I had that, you know, in my mind and he didn't, but I definitely pushed back on it and, you know, fast forward a bunch of years when I look back on and I wonder, okay, was the teacher accurate? Did she see something I didn't see? And at that particular age, no, she was wrong. And that's a whole other conversation that I talk about in, you know, Motherhood So White. But I just had a very surface sort of understanding of what it was. And I did think like a lot of Black people, that Black children are quick to be assigned that label. So I wasn't dismissive of it, but I knew that there were some racial implications underneath it.

Claire: Yeah. When you were a kid, what were you like at school? Were you know, a good girl, were you know, always following the rules? I'm just curious what it was like to have a kid who, you know, maybe reacted differently than you did at school and how that affected the way that you know, I dunno if you got reports from school or interactions with her, [00:17:00] but like, did that bring up feelings about your own self sort of?

Nefertiti Austin: Okay. So I had very young parents and I had parents who also had drug problems. So when I was in kinder through, I think like third grade, we moved a lot and I missed quite a bit of school, but I always loved school, so I was always a very strong student. And then once my brother and I went to live with grandparents, I mean, I got in trouble for talking to my neighbor because I'd be bored, but I was always a very strong student. Now I can think of people I grew up with, and in hindsight I can say, oh, you know what, James really wasn't bad. He just had ADHD, but the teachers didn't know what to do with him. So I certainly could name a bunch of names of people who, and even as adults remain undiagnosed.

But from my experience as a learner, my daughter, I mean, we're 180 degrees in, in how we learn. And I mean, [00:18:00] Quinn, I know you've had to learn how to chunk assignments and asking teachers to implement accommodations or having to really break things down very granularly sometimes for the kids. I didn't have that. I could do that on my own. So it has been a learning experience and I'm very clear, like her experience is not my experience, so I don't put that on.

Quinn: I gotta be honest though, like I was saying to my wife, it was our 15th anniversary recently which feels like.

Nefertiti Austin: Congrats.

Quinn: Thank you. It's a lot of work. As you all know, we were having our little you know, how has it gone conversation. And you know, I say things like I wish sometimes, often honestly, that I could go back with the experience I have now as a dad.

The good stuff and the rougher stuff that I've learned from, to be a better dad then when they were little, 'cause I had three under three, we had a bunch of miscarriages and IVF and all this stuff. And then beggars can't be choosers. Three under three, third was an accident, of course. But that still means like 3 under[00:19:00] 4, 3 under 5, you know, the whole thing.

And it was tough. Pros and cons, you know, house filled with diapers, but then you're done. But especially when he was having a harder time and we weren't aware of it or this, or, you know, we had a, they were like, terrible twos is the worst label of all time. 'cause they don't tell you about three.

Nefertiti Austin: Or five.

Quinn: Oh my god. Yes. And you know, we were kind of going through all that and I wish, sometimes I could go back from it, but I do feel like because of his experience and each of them with their own things, they've each got stuff going on like the rest of us. I feel like you said, learning that I need to break things down for him is something that my entire family can benefit from, including me. Like when we, as we talk about, we have five people, we're both working. My wife's very busy. We, you know, got commitments, this and this. We've got crazy calendar stuff like I'm sure you guys do. Claire and I talk about it all the time, like sometimes it helps to go, go do this one thing.

Nefertiti Austin: One thing.

Quinn: Then I will give you the [00:20:00] next direction because I used to be like, buddy, why haven't you followed this trail of things I gave you to do?

And I didn't know he was completely incapable of doing that, but also most of us are not. So I think some of that stuff has actually just been helpful overall. Like you said, not always something we're able to do. You know, someone's having a tantrum and sometimes you gotta be like, sorry, we can't sit here and talk about it.

We're fucking late for soccer practice. Yeah, we gotta go right now. We'll deal with it in the car. And that's not perfect, but that's also kinda life. So anyways, that's kind of my feeling with a little bit of you know, hindsight. I think a lot of this stuff is applicable to most of us, most of the time.

Nefertiti Austin: Yes.

Claire: And, you know, I think having a kid with ADHD is sort of like having a newborn and that there are these scaffoldings and organizations and best practices in place, but the kid doesn't know that, you know? And so you're like, but I put the calendar on the fridge, and all the experts say that was gonna make everything better.

And you didn't get the memo somehow. And or like we've talked about how if you don't eat, like you are in a [00:21:00] bad mood and you take everyone down, so why don't you eat? You're not always perfect at, you know, having the wherewithal to rise above or, you know, to give them the benefit of the doubt.

We all have our own weak moments. But you know, those moments of thinking that you can have control over it or not. Tell me a little bit about the supports that you found, either like in your community or if you found any, like therapists or doctors or specialists at school, that were helpful for your daughter, but also to you to make you feel, you know, I dunno what you, how your stress manifested itself, but what did you need that helped you out?

Nefertiti Austin: Well, we were fortunate in the therapists we've had. We've had some really great therapists who would say to me, okay, I'm gonna meet with you by yourself, which was great.

So then it gave me an opportunity to really vent and I mean, I vent with my friends, but it was great. And still, she has a therapist that I can go to and I can be very transparent about the fact that, okay, so this is a couple months ago. Mornings. Oh my [00:22:00] God, I just wanna throw her out with the trash because she didn't wanna get up, attitude. And she's 12, so, you know, it's already the, I get a lot of mouth, you know, as it is. And I'm over it because she has to take the bus. It's a very long bus ride and we don't have a lot of time in the morning. And she's lollygagging and like you said, the calendar.

So for her, there's a whiteboard in her room. Everything is very neatly written, every single task. And I know better than to put 10 tasks on there. So there's four tasks. I'm super careful about not giving too many directions because I give too many directions. I'm well aware of that, I'm working on myself. And she didn't care. You know, she is talking shit and not getting dressed, walking around in a circle, petting the dog, not eating breakfast, not taking her medicine. And the whole time I'm looking at the clock and I'm like, if you miss this bus, you'll stay home with me and you're not gonna be happy [00:23:00] about that. 'cause I'm sick of you and I'm done and I'm triggered. It will not be great.

Claire: We're not doing screen time.

Quinn: Yeah. I will frequently say things like, you're gonna want to get on that bus. Let me break it down for you. You don't want to be here on the other side of eight o'clock.

Nefertiti Austin: Here with me all day long because I will cancel everything I need to do. And I will sit here with you in this room all day and we'll just sit and stare at each other. Or I'll go through this nightmare of a room. She collects all manner of stuff. She's a bag lady. From way back. I'll throw all the shit in the trash. It would give me pleasure and you will watch me do it. So I get very petty. So I do have to tell on myself and say to the therapist, I was, I had my petty boots on and I liked it.

Claire: Yeah.

Quinn: Especially as they get older. A lot of things can be true, which is like you were following every best practice you can think of. You're not changing it. You're giving them one direction, you're helping them, you're giving them grace that they are always going to have a harder time with this, even when you [00:24:00] set all those things up. And they need to get on the fucking bus and get their stuff done. And yeah, sometimes I'm just like I don't know what to tell you, but like you're sitting on the ground drawing and like it's coming. Like you, you have to leave.

Claire: Also why is the dog, like the dog attention? So I've texted Quinn about this. My son James will focus on the dog like right before bedtime. I have to hug him. I have to kiss him. He loves me sticking his fingers in his face. I've said, I dunno if you've said this, if he bites you, I'm not gonna feel sorry for you.

Nefertiti Austin: It's your fault.

Claire: And it's not a nice thing to see your kid do. You know? But also, again, like end of day, what time of day is a good time of day. But really, last night I was singing him a lullaby, which I don't do anymore 'cause I'm just the worst. And he interrupted me to tell me, to remind him of something. And I walked away. He said, you can keep singing. And I said, no, I'm done. And then he like sang the song to himself and I was like, I had my petty boots on. I could have gone back and been like this child. Like [00:25:00] he was just trying to remember things. But I was like, Nope, I'm done. I'm not singing you twinkle twinkle. Like you blew it. So that was it.

Quinn: And I try to recognize that's a lot of times about me where I'm like, I don't have it tonight. I don't have first gear, much less like second gear, and it doesn't behoove our relationship for me to take that out on them because they are just being a kid, much less like sort of ADHD at bedtime, which is a whole other thing. But sometimes I'm just like, best wishes, enjoy your book. I gotta, I can't, this only gets worse from here.

Nefertiti Austin: You have to tap out and she'll do that when it's time to go to bed. And she'll show up with a deck of Uno cards and then a regular deck of cards. And I'm looking at the clock again, and I'm like, are you serious? We've been home together all this time. You didn't look in my direction. You didn't wanna talk to me. And now it's time to go to bed and you wanna play cards? Oh, it'll just be quick. No, I have tapped out. I'm done. So goodnight

Quinn: Also, let's check tape. When has it ever been quick? Like never.

Nefertiti Austin: No. There's no [00:26:00] easy way to play Uno, especially with two people. You could, that's like monopoly.

Claire: Thank you. Wow. You really hit on something. You're right. That's amazing.

Nefertiti Austin: I'm serious.

Claire: No, it's true. Especially 'cause you're never gonna shuffle all those cards right. And then you're gonna end up with a handful of reds.

Talk a little bit about some places where you've had to sort of choose your battles. I think we're kind of on this topic, but if you go on social media enough, like it's not hard to find people saying the reason why kids are today is 'cause people don't discipline their kids. Or people don't spank anymore.

You know, and there's a fine line. You can't hold these kids to every single standard that maybe we were held to or you might hold another kid to, but there's a fine line between letting them walk all over you. Again, it depends on how you're feeling, the time of day, what you know, are we on a schedule, but what's something where you've had to let something go that you maybe wouldn't have with your son, for instance.

Nefertiti Austin: My son graduated in the spring, so just before graduation, you know, they had a number of events and he had gone on a retreat. He went to an all boys [00:27:00] school. So when the boys returned, we’re sitting in the chapel. And so the boys are filing in and you know, we're in a chapel, it's a Catholic school, so it's a, you know, kind of a momentous occasion. And she was mad at me because I would not allow her to bring her iPad in the church. And we were only going to be in there, I think 30, 40 minutes or what have you. So not only does she have an attitude, we're in the pews. And then she decides to reach for my phone. Okay. No. So I didn't even say anything.

I just put my phone in my purse. And so she's sitting there and she's like I hate you so much. And our really good friends who've known her her whole life are seated in front of us. And my friend turns around 'cause she's horrified that she has said, she's hot. And so I have to put my hand on my friend's shoulder and to calm her down [00:28:00] and tell her, don't worry about it. Just we're good. And we just continued on. And I just ignored her. You know, the whole thing. And then by the end of it, she had calmed herself down. And then of course she was happy to talk to her brother. But those types of things that will happen. And that's not the first or the last time that has happened.

And you know, kids get really loud around their friends and very attitudinal around their friends. And so, if it's time to go or I'll say, okay, get your things, let's go. I am, I did, I'm going to, and you know, and it's a little louder than it should be. I wait until we get in the car and then of course I ham her up for that behavior.

And I try very hard not to humiliate because I don't think that's the right thing to do. And I definitely will not do that to her in front of other people. And I've been trying to get her to understand, [00:29:00] don't do that to me. And you're going to lose, like I'm gonna win every single time, so don't do it. And whether or not we have this conversation in front of people or not, just know that if you forget who you are, and more importantly, if you forget who I am, I will remind you.

Quinn: You are the one who knocks. Yeah. I think Claire and I have mentioned this before so much of life obviously is about expectations and especially children once they're semi sentient or like more confident than they are sentient or their ability to grasp things. But I realized as again, they're all sort of in this same age range and going through things, I was like why are we arguing about like the dumbest shit all the time, over and over?

Like the, it's all the same. And I had this moment where I was like oh, they, it's a like first principles, fundamental misunderstanding where they think a majority of decisions, calendar entries, whatever, [00:30:00] are a conversation to be had.

Nefertiti Austin: Right.

Quinn: Like that they're up for discussion. And I was like, oh, that's why. And so we had this sit down where I was like. I am so sorry, I'm gonna put this on me, but let me clarify something for you. Everything you see here, and I'll show them my crazy ass calendar with work and mom travel and my stuff and all this. I was like, everything here. I know you think it's like it's there and if you fake a cold like Ferris Beeler, you don't have to go. I was like, there's so many moving pieces behind, not just that it's there, but that I actually put it there and the decisions, everything and by the way, like I took your opinion and your beliefs and values into whether we are going to this thing or prioritizing you in this moment or this day or whatever.

I was like, those aren't gonna change like just so you know. I will let you know from now on when something is a question or conversation, but otherwise you might as well let go. And they were super annoyed, but also I was like, I don't know what else [00:31:00] to tell you. Like we can't keep doing this about every single thing.

Claire: You're much more measured than I am. I prefer like the blow up, you know, the explosion.

Quinn: Sure. But you're so good at those though.

Claire: Yeah, I told my son he was being an asshole the other night, and I don't cuss at them like that, but there was a misunderstanding and my son thought my husband was teasing him and he wasn't. And my son said, shut up. And I was just raised in a family where kids don't say shut up.

Quinn: That was our biggest trigger word, to be honest.

Claire: Yeah. Like more than sucks, more than pissed off, which were also like bad words. And he doubled down. He wasn't sorry about it. And I said, you are being an asshole. And then he like, I don't know what he said, but I did one of these.

And, my husband, he rose above and they took him upstairs and they talked. And I actually did the, I literally sunk down because I took my food down to the basement and I put myself in time out to eat my food. 'cause I had of course like been cooking all day. That's the, you know, that's the [00:32:00] straw that breaks the camel's back. It's like when they're eating the food that you cooked, you know, that you put all the time into and anyway, and then we apologize the next day. But yeah, I didn't have it in me Quinn to be like, we don't talk that way.

Quinn: By the way, like I'm glossing over. I did a, you know, I minimized, I summarized like all of the fights that led up to this where I did not handle it well, both, like in the moment, and in aggregate. That's the thing that got us to that place.

Nefertiti Austin: Yeah, we're human. And I do tell my daughter, I said, you know, I know your triggers are basic. Hunger, exhaustion, overstimulation. Those are your triggers. And for me, disrespect is a trigger. And there's a lot that I just, I ignore. I don't hear it. I let it run off me, and then I will start to signal, Hey, that's one, okay now you're at two. If I get to three and I let go, then that's on you. And then she'll, you know, say that you're yelling at me and you're a bitch today. Because I [00:33:00] told you that’s the way to get your attention. And I gave you a heads up. I asked you to stop. I told you to stop. I implored you to stop. And you did not stop.

Claire: Yeah, and I'm yelling at you because I'm preparing you for the world that won't be as kind as I am. What was it like to work on this book while raising your daughter? Were you talking with her as you wrote it and would you learn things that you would sort of implement in real time? I just think that's really interesting, like the meta aspect of it.

Nefertiti Austin: Okay. I don't know that was a good idea. And there were many times when I thought, this is probably not the best time to write this book because I am in the thick of it. There's that piece, and I did talk to her because I wanted her to know that yes, I am writing about you. Not every single thing, not every single day, snapshots of our life and snapshots of things that have worked and things that haven't worked. And you will help so many kids and so many parents and so many teachers [00:34:00] who don't know how you actually feel. Or as a parent, how I'm actually feeling in this moment. When I've gotten yet another email or another text message saying, you know, this happened and that happened, and they're confused and I'm confused and you're upset and I'm upset, all these things.

And so I did talk with her so she was aware of what I was writing, why I was writing She's Just Spirited, but when, let's see, when was I working on it, last year? Sixth grade was actually pretty good. So, from an educational point of view, it was okay, but just in her maturation that 11 slowly creeping up to 12 and just all the things, hormones and all of that stuff, it just really wasn't the best time. You know, what could I do?

Claire: Tell me something that you learned that was helpful while you wrote it. But also I feel like I've picked up references that have not been helpful, like things that lean, [00:35:00] like it's good to be empathetic towards these kids, but I don't appreciate the guilt trip sometimes too and I know that sounds very defensive and I own it, I am defensive, but like I have seen those references that are like, if you only knew what your child wanted, like, you would realize like what a huge asshole you are and you would forgive them everything. And I'm like, that's not like, I need a little discipline.

Like these are men in the world and I'm not trying to let 'em get away with everything. So tell me something that you learned that you used and then something that you're like, maybe we'll just let this be a subjective thing that these other people enjoy.

Nefertiti Austin: Well, I agree with you. I think discipline is huge. I think it's important, and the guardrails are there for a reason and I think definitely in interviewing people and talking with people who've gone before me through this whole process, I really see where you do have to hold the line.

So for all the gentle parenting experts, I don't really agree with that. I think there are times when the empathy is necessary [00:36:00] and it is warranted. And there are times when you do have to take a step back and you do have to say, gosh, I just need her to do three things. But the reality is only one thing is gonna get done today, and I gotta be okay with that one thing that gets done.

So I had to really let go. So I do think that in the writing of She's Just Spirited, I was reminded to let go of some of my expectations and to be okay with, okay, if one thing got accomplished versus three, it's okay. That's a win.

So really learning to recognize a win and then mirror for her, Hey, that's a win. We got a win. So, I think I'm doing a better job of saying to her, did you recognize your win? Hey, you got a win. Just to keep her lifted. And not focus on, okay, yeah, we got this one thing done, but we didn't finish this and we didn't finish that. And because I can go down the list. So I've [00:37:00] really, I think, grown in that respect where I'm more positive without it being insincere, you know, like you say, oh, good job.

Quinn: Or abandoning it all together, you know, which is easy as I had a wonderful therapist for a long time who used to tell me you know, I gotta do this, and if I'm doing this, I should be doing this and I should do this, and I should this. And he said, you have a really great habit of shoulding all over yourself.

And I would do the same thing, which was look at a list and see everything that wasn't done. And whether that's for me or other folks. And I carry that straight into parenting. And same thing, any time you can identify wins is helpful for everyone involved, frankly. Again, like you said, as long as it's not insincere.

Nefertiti Austin: Yeah. Yeah.

Claire: We are very strict about bedtime. 'Cause he never sleeps in late, you know, there's no payoff, eating and screens. 'cause I mean, he does get screen time sometimes, but not nearly I think as much as he would be allowed to have as if he were a neurotypical kid because the way he [00:38:00] behaves, the way his brain reacts once he's on screens for too long.

Nefertiti Austin: The dopamine drop. Yeah.

Claire: Yeah. And I used to judge him. I used to think it was a character trait, like I thought I was sad about it. And I was like, it's sad that he's such a screen addled child. But yeah, I learned more. Sarah Walker, who we interviewed a couple months ago, said the same thing. That dopamine drop, they're in this world that doesn't challenge them the way that this world does. And, you know, so we've gotten better about meeting him halfway, setting up these, but also at the same time you cannot treat us like shit. You know, we have to find, you gotta find a buffer. You gotta find a way to get over this. We have to go halfway.

Did your son, I know he is a little bit older than her, but was he ever, like, why is she so extra or like, why does she get these extra accommodations and I'm just doing what I'm supposed to do? Or was he pretty understanding about having a sister who had different needs from him?

Nefertiti Austin: His beef was that she would do stuff to him and say stuff to him, and then I would defend [00:39:00] her. Okay, you're older. You have to be the mature one. And he got me really good one day, you know, and he was like, you always take her side. And I was like, okay, you're right. And from that, I did have to learn in front of him to say, you were wrong. Apologize to your brother, or you took his money, pay him back, or you broke, whatever, fix it. Or, you know, telling her he's not going to play with you if you continue calling him names, telling him you hate him, hiding his stuff from him, like that doesn't feel good. So I had to do a lot of work with her so that he felt seen, 'cause that's a lot of stress to put on the child.

And I did learn in writing this book that, that term is called Glass Children in that, you know, we're so focused on the child who has the issues that we see right through the other kids. They are just not seen and they have [00:40:00] their own issues. Some of them feel guilty because maybe they don't have ADHD or maybe their issues are manageable, they're mild, or whatever the case may be. And some of them are forced to take on a lot of responsibility to help out with their younger sibling or even an older sibling to be the mature one. And it robs them of a chance to make those same mistakes. It robs them of an opportunity to just be 12 or just be 14 or just be eight. While their sibling is, you know, outside throwing stuff on the roof and they shouldn't be. And so, he really helped me with that. And I didn't want them to grow up and not have a relationship. I really wanted them to be close because I was late to parenting. I was what, 36, 37. And I know folks who have babies, you know, well into their forties. But in my friend group, I was like at the end of it.

You know, I'm like, when you guys get older, you guys [00:41:00] really will need each other. And I don't want it to be a relationship because mom said so. I want it to be a relationship based upon like a mutual respect. And to get to that, she had to understand you cannot mistreat him. I wanted him to feel like he had a voice to tell her, stop, leave me alone. And every now and then, you know, he'll say some stuff to her that's probably unkind and she'll come and tell me and I'm like, oh, well that's what you get.

Claire: Yeah, that's siblings. I always say siblings are roommates that you did not choose and my husband's an only child so he sometimes still cannot understand how you can quickly go so close from being obsessed with someone to hating them, to going right back to being obsessed with them. And I'm like, that's just you have to just accept that. Did you grow up with siblings?

Nefertiti Austin: Yes. I have a younger brother. We're exactly two and a half years apart. And so, yeah, so I know exactly how that goes. You hate each other. You love each other. And then when you get older, you know, life intervenes and, you know, sometimes you guys are cool, [00:42:00] sometimes you're not.

Claire: Yeah. Quinn, I don't know if we've ever talked about whether your kids older brother and sister are kind to him with his needs or, you know, they pick on him or, you know, they're mad that he needs extra attention.

Quinn: They're all so extra in their own ways that I think it would be a mildly hypocritical to throw any stones in this glass house full of glass children. We've definitely before. Well, and with each of them over time, but especially when we were really trying to figure out how we were gonna accommodate and deal with this in an ongoing way you know, there were issues of you spend an inordinate amount of time with our brother, and you're like, yes.

And that's why, because of these reasons. But we have also had to, and committed to do the same with each of them at different times. And sometimes that's the way it goes. Sometimes everybody's having a good week, which is, I don't recall the last time that was. And sometimes it's mom or dad or fucking both or [00:43:00] everyone, in which case I take the dog for a walk. But they don't really call it outright very much. I would say they're all pretty respectful of each other's shit.

That doesn't mean I don't think they have grievances or they don't get tired of it, or they don't be like this guy or this lady. Certainly and I would be surprised if they didn't, but there's never just like, how come this moron can't pay attention to anything or, you know, this and that?

I would not handle that well, probably. So, as I have told Claire and I think you alluded to it here you get to be hungry, you get to be tired, you don’t get to be a dick, and life is figuring out how to do that. In fact, our pediatrician, when we were in Los Angeles for 15 years, wrote this great book called Eat, Sleep, and Poop.

And it's a really great, hey, here's how the first year is gonna go. But what's really great about it as well is that half of the book, along the way, running in parallel is him ignoring his own advice to raise his own daughter which [00:44:00] is great and very comforting in the middle of the night.

Most of the thesis of the book is your kid's gonna be fine. It's like a flow chart of oh, this is the rash. At the end, they're like, they're fine. Go back to bed. But the fundamentals, I just was talking with my 10-year-old about this recently of look man, as you get older and you go through things, whatever your choices are or who you are, how you're built, your chemistry, whatever it might be, you're gonna have an increasingly diverse set of adversities.

But everybody has eat, sleep, poop. You are hungry, you are cranky, you are tired, you're cranky, you gotta poop. You're cranky. The more you can at least start with those and be self-aware when they're happening, which again, like no one starts with the ability to pay attention to those. But the more you can recognize those and go, oh, it's the, I tell 'em all the time. I have showed 'em, I'm like, it's the Snickers bar commercial that is universal, the one because it's so true. And it's the same for all of it, which is sometimes why I just go. I'm gonna go to bed. I'm really tired. You're really tired. Nothing gets solved here until morning.

'cause I'm exhausted. That's it. Or I can't talk to you until I eat a [00:45:00] snack. And so I think starting with those things, recognizing we've all got those, but then whatever your potpourri of other issues are or mine is what we're gonna do with. And you're like, you have said, we tell 'em all the time.

We're like, we're gonna be dead soon. You guys have to figure out how to like, support each other, not just deal with each other's shit. But you're all you got. So one, I'm sorry, and two, you're welcome. It could be a lot worse. But no, like clock's ticking on the two of us, so, I don't know. And they're like, God, these guys, Jesus.

Claire: So I have these two boys, and I, sometimes I probably talk about this too much, but sometimes I just feel like I am the only girl in the world and not in a fun Rihanna way. And I'm always just fascinated about what it's like to live with a daughter. And I know having a daughter wouldn't be, it would have its own challenges and maybe she would like, destroy me emotionally much more than my son’s have.

But just what's the state of the union of a preteen girl lately? What's she into? How does it compare to when you were her age? Just tell me a little bit about how it's going for you currently.[00:46:00]

Nefertiti Austin: Well, it's so funny. I always thought of myself as a boy mom. And even when I was ready to adopt a second time, I was clear, I'm gonna get another little boy 'cause I got this boy thing. I can do this. I don't want a little girl because I didn't wanna deal with periods and attitudes and all the drama. And then I got exactly all of that, periods, attitudes and drama. And I laugh at myself all the time because I'm like, wow, I got exactly what I didn't want, but it's good because the truth is I needed her and I didn't know that. So my daughter really is like my inside voice and because she doesn't really have a filter and she will say things and she will do things that I wouldn't do at that age, of course, but I think sometimes that was a good one.

That was pretty good. So it is a lot of, she's into Roblox, but there's one of the [00:47:00] games, one of the hundreds of games on Roblox where you get to dress your avatar. So she's very much into the outfits, the hair, she can do nails like nobody's business.

She's like a professional. And so we have a thousand press on nails all over the house and she's got a super steady hand. So oh my God, she's fantastic with that. And if I would allow her to wear makeup, you know, she'd look like a clown because she would be, you know, all in. But of course, you know, we can't wear makeup 'cause we're 12 at least not in my house, but okay, that's not happening. We're not going to Sephora, so just forget about it.

Quinn: Again, one of those things where maybe today's the day and I'm like, no. Have I ever changed my mind on something? Like I recognize also that is a problem in itself. We'll discuss that later, but like just, you might as well drop it at least publicly.

Nefertiti Austin: And you know, she doesn't have a phone. She won't get a phone until spring break of eighth grade, so she's on [00:48:00] countdown. But she does have an Apple watch that someone else purchased. I didn't buy it, but anyways, another conversation. And she does have an iPad.

So the group text, I know that she's in, but you know, it's all mine. So I check everything and she knows everything in this house is mine, including her. I don't care who sends what. And if you know your friend is going to be inappropriate and say stuff, you should tell them. My mom reads all of my stuff and she will shut this shit down. So she's into music. She loves Katseye. So for Halloween, she and her crew were Katseye. So it's a lot of K-pop that happens in my house, a lot of it. And graphic novels, she's a beast. She loves graphic novels.

Quinn: Love it.

Claire: My son loves graphic novels and especially with girls and it's funny 'cause he's such a bro and I was like, I was teasing him the other day 'cause I was like, there's no doubt that you are a cis man because he misplaced a shirt and he said somebody took it. And I was like, yeah, we're all trying to take the 10-year-old’s shirt 'cause we want it so [00:49:00] bad.

Nefertiti Austin: Yes, absolutely. do. But he loves like a Babysitter's Cub, you know,

Quinn: They're so good. Yeah, they're great.

Claire: And makes me happy because otherwise, you know, there's some hope for you yet. Do you think her ADHD makes her really good at the nail thing?

Nefertiti Austin: Yeah, she's super creative. I mean, she's got a project that's coming up. They have to build like a medieval manner and cottages and you know, a lake and all this stuff. So I won't help because she's like fantastic with that kind of stuff. And she had some project last year and in my mind I'm thinking, well, you've built stuff vertically. But she smashed the model magic onto the board and all that. I mean, it was phenomenal. Great. She's good at that.

Quinn: That's awesome.

Claire: What's Charlotte into currently? You know, K-pop also, what does she, I know you just got home. Quinn was just in London. 'cause for the premier of Wicked.

Quinn: Yeah. Yeah. We're all into that. It's everywhere in a great way. Very supportive of mom. And it's just great. She bounces around for sure. What is the Disney [00:50:00] show? Oh God. I called it Plants versus Zombies the other day and she was like, I'm never gonna talk to you again. It is like Vampire Zombie. I don't fucking know. Like number four.

I don't know. There's some music in there. It's all great. It's a bunch of 16 year olds, like having fun, whatever, she's into that. Yeah, I dunno. It depends on the day, really. It depends on the day.

Claire: Have your girls had to deal with like girl drama shit yet?

Nefertiti Austin: Oh my God. Yes.

Claire: Why is it like we can't learn? That makes me so sad. I guess. I'm like, why did Mean Girls get made if we haven't learned our lesson about, you know, like the trickery and the deception and the betrayal and one day you're on top and the next day you're on bottom. You know, it seems like you have to do that, but it seems so I thought we'd do better than that. Like after, you know, our generation.

Nefertiti Austin: I didn't deal with that as a kid, so it was shocking for me. And it started for her in fourth grade. And it finally leveled off last year. And then this year it's, we haven't really had any problems. It seems like they've definitely, they grow out [00:51:00] of it. Not everyone though. 'cause of course there's, you know, you see Real Housewives and pick a mean girl from one of those shows. But the mean girl stuff was horrible. These girls are awful and mean and nasty to each other, so we definitely have, and then she wanted to roll with the big dogs. I'm like, girl, you cannot roll with those girls, they’ll eat you up and spit you out every single time. And she would say stuff and do stuff trying to, you know, hang, and it really took, I think, say, fourth, fifth, like three years for her to get that's not your crew. Not at all.

Quinn: Yeah. And I get it. We've all seen it before, but like you said, immediately you're like, this is not gonna go well for you to be clear.

Nefertiti Austin: No.

Claire: You will always lose. You will always like get hurt and you know, yeah. I wanted to touch on like motherhood spaces and 'cause the first time I talked to you, I think Motherhood So White had just come out. And your kids are a little bit older, so maybe you don't need like the same kind of spaces as you did when they were littler.

But like, when you [00:52:00] do need a reference or a laugh or someone who won't judge you, when you're like, my daughter's been such a fucking asshole right now, and I wanna slap her in the face. And they're not gonna be like, oh, you know, like, where do you go when you need, what you need support wise?

Nefertiti Austin: I have a couple of great text threads with friends and then I'll get on the phone and call a couple of friends in particular I can call and we just sit and talk shit about the kids the whole time. It's so much fun. And we send each other videos, Tiktoks, all sorts of things, and the kids know, they're like, you guys are just talking about us. Yeah. Because if we don't talk about you, we're gonna kill you. And so it's great. And, you know, to get the hustle out in the morning, you know, I will get on the phone and call my friend and I'll be like, I damn near killed this bitch. You know? Because you have to let it out. And then we laugh, laugh, laugh. And then I'm able to go on with my day. But I believe in laughing and I believe in watching, listening, reading all the petty parenting stuff [00:53:00] possible. 'Cause it makes me feel good.

Claire: Yeah. The last thing I ever wanna hear someone telling me, why don't you just listen to him? Or something like that, or, why don't you just try loving him more? And I'm like, goodbye. This is you have disqualified yourself as a, as an expert.

Quinn: I don't know about with Evil Witches, but always, whenever people ask who you are I always send them the about page of your blog. 'cause it's very straightforward like who it's for and who it is not. And you either see yourself in it or you don't. And that's such like a threshold.

It's such a qualifier. But I'm wondering, Claire, have you ever gotten feedback from people who just signed up in the wrong way? Like for instance, sometimes with the, you know, the rest of my job for climate stuff or public health or something like that? You know, I will very rarely get an email from someone going I mean, does everybody deserve food? And I'm like, who do? What do you think you fucking signed up for? I can't be more clear.

Claire: I learned, I mean, and no one means poorly, but like we switched schools a couple years ago and I tested the waters maybe, you know, too aggressively and we had the kids go to a Catholic school and [00:54:00] the school goes in hard on traditions and they're all very precious. But you know, sometimes you're just not.

And the kids had to, I believe, dress up for May crowning, but it was a late start and an early dismissal. And I put a text out to the boy mom thread that was like, I bet Mother Mary would've told us to like, take a break. You know? She would've said, relax. And one of the moms like, was like, oh, it's my favorite day of the year. And I was like, ah, damn. I misjudged. And yeah, I mean, it doesn't get too bad. There's always, that's why I started the group was 'cause like I just didn't need people to be like, be glad you have a child. You're like, well, yeah, obviously. I'm glad I have two legs.

Quinn: Of course. But that doesn't mean I don't wanna sell them sometimes like for free, like both of those things can be true. You know, Claire and I have talked about we had all kinds of miscarriages and IVF and we were flipping through egg donors and they were all a science miracle, all this and this. And occasionally I'm still like, I'll give 'em away for nothing.

Nefertiti Austin: Yeah. Yeah.

Quinn: Like not even a question mark.

Claire: I have [00:55:00] to say every single time I know we're gonna do this call because a Zoom call does feel like work. There's like a part of me that's like it's an obligation. And then I always feel so good after these conversations 'cause of the laughing and just like the, just knowing that everyone else is going through it, or at least other people that are cool that I like are going through it.

Nefertiti Austin: Whether or not they admit it, everyone is going through it. So I try to stay away from parenting experts who have no children. I'm like, Nope. And even the ones who have one kid, I'm like, you're halfway there. You're halfway there. Yeah.

Claire: I have a friend who she has no kids, but her boyfriend has a teenage daughter, and my friend was judging the teenage daughter for her basicness. Like the girl was like being a crab about, I think going outside or reading. And my friend texted us and was like I think that if I had a daughter, she wouldn't be like this. And I was like, Nope. She would be worse.

Nefertiti Austin: She would be worse.

Claire: Even dumber.

Nefertiti Austin: Yeah. You never know. You cannot call it, I swear, if parenting has taught me [00:56:00] anything, it is not to judge because you never know and you don't know what's going on in people's homes either.

Quinn: We try to talk about it all the time. My kids are public school kids and especially now a lot of kids and families and fucking teachers and administrators dealing with you know, money shortages, food shortages, you name it, all the above. But even on a regular day as we say it you just, you never know. You never know what's going on at home for any of these folks. Much less when they're hungry.

Claire: Can I ask you something much more stupid real quick? If your daughter is doing Roblox and she's in this game, my kids are into Grow a Garden where they pretend to grow a garden, is admin abuse a thing that's in your life? Have you heard of this? Does she talk to you about this? I'm just curious if that's a part of your life.

Nefertiti Austin: I never heard of that.

Claire: Okay. I don't know. It's something where the game is crazy for an hour and they have to log in early. 'cause it's like that one shot of this one time where everything is like crazy. Although despite like [00:57:00] how rare it is, it's every weekend somehow. So it's not nearly as rare. And it's one of these things where I'm like, how was it? And they're like, it's great. I'm like, okay, good. I don't know what it was, but anyway, be glad that's not.

Nefertiti Austin: Well, I don't know what it's called, but what you described. Okay. She only gets her iPad on the weekends, So she gets it Friday night through Sunday evening. And so she will say, you know, I hear about a drop. Oh, such and such is gonna drop, and I have to be on YouTube at, you know, this time.

And she'll tell me her friends are up at 4:30 in the morning trying to, you know, I don't allow that. So, and you know, she beefs, she's complained, well, you know, I didn't get to sign in. Or she'll ask, well, can I do the, and I'm like, is it Friday? Because I think it's Tuesday, so I guess no.

Quinn: Yeah, and again, I have been wrong on that before. What I'm not gonna be wrong about is the result of the answer to that question. 'cause if it is not technically Friday, which again correct me if I'm wrong, it hasn't changed. I like, [00:58:00] again, you can be bummed. I expect you to be bummed about that, if not mad.

Claire: That makes me feel better. 'cause my son was asking for the computer, my older one at 6:45 the other day, or 6:30. 'cause he said there's this thing happening and I lost it. And I was like, they're expecting you to be online and kids on the west coast to be up at 4:45. And I guess it's true. And he actually said you were right.

Like later on he was like that was too much. So, you know, and when your son tells you as a mother that you are right, you're like, I'm gonna hold this in my heart forever. This is, you know, more precious than anything else.

Quinn: Anything else you want to share or get out there?

Nefertiti Austin: Let's see. I will share that She's Just Spirited is not just for parents. I really think it's a great resource for educators. Because they spend more time with our kids than we do. And I do think that a lot of times educators think that we are asking for too much. We're asking for a lot of special stuff and I think they might even kind of tune us out a little bit when we're trying to say, no, this [00:59:00] is who she is.

This is who he is. And yeah is it one more thing for you to do? Probably. But this is what the need is. Because you know, sometimes parents feel very blindsided by teachers. If you think everything's great and then suddenly they tell you something 180 degrees from what they said.

So before, like one of her teachers had said, oh, it's fine if she sits under the table, it's fine if she wanders around the room. 'cause I'm like, she's listening. You know, I know she's not on her square, but she heard every, because I asked, well what did the teacher say? And she's told me everything you've said.

And then the next day I get an email saying, oh, you know, she won't sit down. That kind of stuff. And just the mixed signals that educators send parents and then we spiral and we go off on our kids. We could communicate so much better. So I do think that there's a lot in my book that could really perhaps streamline communication between parents and educators.

Claire: Are [01:00:00] you available if like an educator wanted to Zoom with you, for instance, are you doing like speaking engagements like that? And where can people find you online?

Nefertiti Austin: I'm at Instagram, I am Nefertiti Austin, and my Instagram and Facebook are linked, so I do check both of those and that's probably the best place. I kind of quit X when it became X.

Quinn: Everything is a lot.

Nefertiti Austin: I respond if you hit me up on IG or Facebook, I will respond.

Claire: Well, I think this book is really important, and I'm glad there's more resources out there. I think it's really brave of you to put it out there and in real time. I know you're a great mom and thank you for being real with us about your journey. And we're glad to share this conversation.

Quinn: I'm so thankful for your perspective which is obviously much different than ours in a thousand ways, but everybody's is. But at the same time as Claire and I always try to come back to is one, this is not an advice show unless someone like you is on.

But two, [01:01:00] everyone is going through it. And like you said it's a lot. It's a commiseration show and so I always appreciate the candor around your experience and candor around everyone else's, including the children whatever they're dealing with, which is often a lot. Again, like I try to tell my middle schooler all the time, I try to start with Buddy, I remember every moment, every look someone gives you in the hallway feels fucking existential. And that is not fun. And no one escapes unscathed. A lot of people have it a lot harder than you, but that doesn't diminish that it's hard for you either. Let's talk about how we might get through tomorrow a little better or help that friend or yourself or whatever it might be.

But it's a lot. But that doesn't mean, it doesn't mean parents aren't, like Claire famously throws her kids' shoes out the fucking door and is bye. Get the fuck out.

Claire: Only when it's really necessary.

Nefertiti Austin: I'm here for all of that and I see you, my sister on that. 'cause sometimes you just have to get out.

Claire: Yes. Yes, [01:02:00] indeed. All right. Well, thank you so much for sharing your time with us. Congratulations on the book. It's good to talk to you. And everyone go buy her book and find Nefertiti online and be nice to the next mom you see.