Keep It Janky

Quinn: [00:00:00] There's a reason they make movies about middle school. Like nobody escapes alive.

Welcome to Not Right Now, the podcast about parenting through all of this.

Claire: We'll be talking about slash crashing out over topics like

Quinn: Reproductive rights, and who left this granola bar wrapper in their pocket before laundry and or stuffed into the couch or just on the floor. And I'm asking who left it, even though I know exactly who left it.

Claire: Digital footprints and actual muddy footprints all over the floor and hand prints on the glass.

Quinn: It's not an advice show.

Claire: It's a you're not alone and you're also not crazy for screaming in the shower kind of show. I'm Claire Zulkey from Evil Witches.

Quinn: And I'm Quinn Emmett from Important, Not Important.

Claire: You can find details in anything we talk about in the show notes or at our website, not right now dot show.

Quinn: Dot show. And if you like what you hear today, please share it with a parent who needs it [00:01:00] or who might laugh and tell our kids to be quiet and then drop us a nice little five star review.

Claire: And reminder. You can send questions or feedback to questions at not right now dot show.

Quinn: Hi, parents and other twisted people. It's Quinn. I am recording this quick intro from our home office where one of my children is downstairs shaking something like a maracca at a deafening level because why not? Anyways, this week our guest is the fabulous Sarah Wheeler. Sarah is a delight as you will find out.

She is many things. She's the creator and writer at the Mom Spreading blog, which is a title I love so much. Sarah is an educational psychologist, a teacher, a mother, an ADHDer and a self-described nineties RnB enthusiast, and obviously as you know from our music episode, [00:02:00] if she wasn't a nineties RnB enthusiast, we wouldn't have her on.

Anyways, Sarah's also written for the New York Times, Romper, the Greater Good Magazine, and one of my favorites, Sweeney's Internet Tendency. Sarah lives in Oakland, consumes a lot of basketball and dances like everybody's watching. And finally, on the about page for Mom Spreading, which we'll put in the show notes, Sarah shared a picture of her at a karaoke bar singing Usher’s Nice and Slow 36 hours before going into labor. She has explained to her children that she would like that image to be painted onto her tombstone. Thank you.

Quick housekeeping reminder. Members get our exclusive bonus segments including monthly Q and A episodes, which we really love doing. And of course our Yes, Right Now bonus pops where Claire and I share one vital thing that got us through the week. It could literally be anything. If you wanna get those, you can do one of two things. You can one, become an Important Member with a 30 day free trial @ importantnotimportant.com slash upgrade, [00:03:00] and you can get everything else we make ad free or two, become a paid subscriber to Claire's blog, Evil Witches.

And you also get all of Claire's most intimate posts where she, I mean, honestly, takes shots at herself and her kids in equal measure. As always, you can find these links and everything else right in your show notes. Please enjoy our convo with Sarah Wheeler.

Claire: Paul, my son won a device that looks like a professional microphone at Dave and Busters but it may surprise you to know that it’s

Sarah Wheeler: Made of condoms.

Claire: Yeah, exactly. And so he was pretty bummed that he couldn't record his, whatever it is that he wanted to record. Probably you know, his rendition of Not Like Us. And so on the one hand I thought it was dear that he wanted to try it. On the other hand I was like, let me talk to you about audio equipment and how you get what you pay for. My dear boy.

Quinn: Your kids win so much shit, Claire and bring it home. It's amazing.

Sarah Wheeler: Is it 'cause they're good or is it 'cause you spend a ton of money at Dave Busters? Or a little bit column A, a little bit column B?

Claire: Well, the Dave Busters thing, it's only, it's almost, it's cute. If you are, okay, so let me give you the context for the Dave and Busters thing. It's a school buy-in party, which means you pay money to go and like and it's moms and it's supposed to be a boy mom party, basically to make up for the daddy daughter dance.

Quinn: I've already got so many questions.

Sarah Wheeler: This is Catholic school?

Claire: Yeah. Catholic school.

Sarah Wheeler: I'm not, okay. I'm just trying to like orient myself. This is like not the culture of my kids' school but I'm fascinated. Go on.

Claire: Yeah, so I didn't know what to expect last year when I first went in. I walk in, first of all, they have a private room, which is so nice. But it is overwhelming all of the flashing lights and noises.

Sarah Wheeler: I can make a neurodiversity joke about Dave and Busters because I have ADHD which I have written thousands of words about how I basically feel like my brain is Dave and Busters during Christmas time.

Claire: So we go in and then they actually have all of this food set up and nonstop drinks, including pop, you [00:05:00] know, and lemonade. And there's a raffle for no reason that goes out at the end where it's some moms

Sarah Wheeler: That feels like too much. We're already winning stuff.

Claire: It is, but also at the same time, you chill with your friends in this room and they give all the kids a gift card to go play games. And they come back and then they're like, what do I do now? And you're like, I don't know. That's not my problem. Talk to your friends. You know? And then they give away these raffles where they get like a big thing of like cheese balls or a big thing of Takis or a big thing of Jarritos.

Sarah Wheeler: I love a raffle. Yeah. I like adult prizes in a raffle. I mean, I think, again, speaking about ADHD, like it is such a dopamine high for me to be like sitting there with my numbers and if I win once every like decade, I'm set and I'm devoted and I will enter every raffle. Yeah. It's like enough of a high to ride on. But I don’t want a giant thing of cheese puffs, you know?

Claire: No. I have still the giant thing of jelly beans, my one son won. And then we still have this thing of Takis. We're still working that down.

But I have to say as an event it combines the sweet spots [00:06:00] of doing something with your kid, but not actually having to be with him for most of the time. And, you know, and I'm not having to play the games. No one is compelling me to do anything. So I just talked to these other moms and then I'm like, well, that was fun.

They had a good time and we won a free. Not free. We spent quite a bit of money to win a free bad microphone. I do judge the daddy daughter, sorry, they call it the sweetheart dance. Not judge, it’s judging FOMO.

Quinn: Is that better or worse? Who can know?

Sarah Wheeler: Yeah. I don't know. I think worse.

Claire: Yeah, but I think the moms get out better 'cause the dads have to stand around and do a dance. Not do a dance, but pretend to dance or be at a school dance. Whereas the moms don't have to pretend like we can just be in this room eating chicken fingers, you know?

Quinn: But that doesn't mean you have to go to Dave and Buster's. I'm still trying to figure out like who wins here. Like why, could you have gone outside somewhere?

Sarah Wheeler: Heteronormative culture wins.

Quinn: Well, sure, yeah, of course. They always do.

Claire: It's like a movie theater vibe where you're like, we're gonna enter this building and pay money and for several hours you'll be entertained. Who's to say whether it's quality [00:07:00] entertainment? But we all did it together. We passed that time, you know, and there that was, and allegedly the school got supported somehow in the midst of all this.

Quinn: I don't let my kids do anything, so I wouldn't even know. Like we wouldn't, they wouldn't have the opportunity to get the microphone. 'cause I just say no to everything.

Sarah Wheeler: You’d just be the one family that's not going to the Dave and Busters?

Quinn: Always, well we're having a movie night at the school. I'm like not our family.

Sarah Wheeler: You're practicing your penmanship.

Claire: They don't like pressure you, but they do brainwash you into thinking things are gonna be fun. And you're like, all right, I guess so. And then you're like, I'm gonna hate this. It's gonna be so stupid. And then you go and you're like, that was fun.

I have to admit it. So it's always a journey from my path of not wanting to do shit to grudgingly admitting that, you know, when it comes to doing shit, that was pretty okay.

Sarah Wheeler: I have a parenting philosophy and I try to, as much as possible, choose environments for my children that also support this philosophy, which is keep it janky. Which is what's the junkiest that this could be, that we would [00:08:00] enjoy it?

There's a lot of reasons I subscribe to that. But, you know, that's what always makes me happy is I'm like, okay, what's the version of the Dave and Buster's thing? But you know, we're just like we set up a table with glass bottles and we're just throwing rocks at them.

You know, and then I don't know, somebody brought like a giant Costco bag of popcorn and we just throw them at the children and everybody has a great time.

Quinn: The glass bottles or the popcorn?

Sarah Wheeler: You know, depends on how it's going,

Quinn: How it's going. Yeah, sure. No, you gotta stay flexible.

Claire: That makes sense. The kids don't need the Dave and Busters or anything, that's for sure. But yeah. KIJ when at all possible.

Sarah Wheeler: I'm not trying to yuck your yum. I'm sorry by the way. I do an arcade. I'm a claw game person. And I know that this is an addict's kind of lie, but I think I'm really good at them.

So, and I have a reputation with my kids who generally think I'm basically garbage. I mean, they're obsessed with me 'cause I'm their mom, but also they think I suck at everything.

They think I'm amazing at [00:09:00] the claw game. so I just basically just keep pumping money into it.

Quinn: Do they not understand statistics and probabilities yet?

Sarah Wheeler: Yeah. I mean, they're good with numbers, but my kids basically turn into like old timey, like Brooklyn guys whenever we're at the claw game because there are certain ones that we know around town they'll be like, don't play that one. It's rigged.

Claire: That's amazing. You need to do or send it to your local paper and have them like, print this out, get paid for this knowledge. This is really good to know.

Sarah Wheeler: I'm sure they've just got tons of funds waiting around.

Quinn: No one's gonna pay you for it.

Claire: I would support this kind of journalism. That's like my kids with badminton. That's the one thing.

Sarah Wheeler: Are you good at badminton?

Claire: I am really good at badminton. I played on the team in high school, actually for two years.

Yeah. I wasn't one of the better players, like the really good players, the really good players also played tennis. I'm good for the kids and I can either play nice and easy with you in the backyard and just dink it back and forth. Or if you wanna play hard, like I will run you around, you know, and I will slam it on your face like if you need me [00:10:00] to.

Sarah Wheeler: You're like a sports, your kids play sports too, right? Like you have that vibe, I admire that. I'm like, a ball comes at me and you know, I'm like, crouching into defense position.

Claire: I definitely don't play many sports with them. If anything they have phased, I'm not relevant anymore to any sports that they might need.

Like we actually hire a college student now to sometimes play practice.

Sarah Wheeler: Oh yeah. You told me about that. Yeah, the college student, the little mentor guy, right?

Claire: Yeah. But I'm not anything anymore. I'm the one who the kids are like, where's my mitt? And then I'll say, I don't know. And then they'll realize it was in their bag where they always left it.

Sarah Wheeler: It is always in the bag. I'm looking for a pair of goggles right now, and it's, you know what, Claire? I don't think I've checked in the bag.

Claire: No. The next time you go to a pool, see if there's a bunch of left behind goggles, and just take six of them and just have them all the time so that there'll always be some goggles.

Sarah Wheeler: Goggles are like umbrellas. They're like a fluid entity. Nobody really owns one.

Claire: No, exactly. Yeah. They don't [00:11:00] completely belong to you. Quinn, what's the talent you have that your kids actually respect?

Quinn: Nothing, I don't know.

Claire: Is there something that you can dominate them at?

Quinn: Those are two different questions. What's a talent I have? The answer is they're all going away quickly and second that they respect? I can't even begin.

Sarah Wheeler: How old are your kids?

Quinn: 10, 11, and 12. How would they answer that? I don't know. Like I put in the right destination on the calendar to get 'em to the fucking place.

Sarah Wheeler: I thought you didn't let them go to the place. Or are you talking about some kind of work camp?

Quinn: Oh, no, right, exactly. It is just digging holes. Yeah, no, I mean it's to tire them out. Anything to tire them out. Anything that I don't have to be directly involved. Like I'm not responsible for, besides getting them there.

Sarah Wheeler: Yes. I want to watch them tire themselves out. Yes.

Quinn: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, I genuinely, Claire, I don't know how they would answer. I will ask them and I will get back to you. We will do a special bonus episode on what my children respect about me. It'll be very short.

Claire: Steve likes to beat our ADHD kid at sports because he's such a bad loser that the kid, not the dad. So Steve will get pleasure [00:12:00] basically out of making James upset by beating him, which is probably not how parents are supposed be.

Sarah Wheeler: A little sadistic, but you know, the exposure therapy.

Claire: Yeah. Well, especially 'cause he treats us like shit so often that every once in a while to, you know, to beat him in a way that is legal. It can be satisfying.

Sarah Wheeler: Sometimes you do wanna stick it to them.

Quinn: Oh yeah, you do. I remember when we were in Los Angeles and the kids were whatever it was. I think it was during COVID. So they were like 5, 6, 7, I mean, this little backyard, we were lucky to have, little soccer net. They hadn't played with any other fucking kids in three months. And my wife asked me a question, I turned around and this dip shit, six years old, was like, haha, I scored six goals when you weren't paying attention.

I was like, well now I'm going to make your life terrible. I'm just gonna score a hundred and I'm gonna make you feel terrible. And he did. And I was like, don't talk shit unless you can't back it up. My grandma never let me win anything.

Sarah Wheeler: Sure. Did that fuck you up?

Quinn: Not with her. Like we were thick as thieves, but overall, I mean, there's a sign in my basement, oh, my wife hates this so much. [00:13:00] I'm a Liverpool soccer fan, and one of their coaches from a hundred years ago had a quote that was like, if you're first, you're first. If you're second, you're nothing.

And I may have hung it in like our little workout room, and she was like, ah. She was like, this explains so much.

Sarah Wheeler: Yeah. You're recovering from that. Or not?

Claire: Or just that's like the opposite of the shirts that say I just want everyone to have a good time.

Quinn: Which is her, she describes herself, we play any board games.

She is, what does she say, Switzerland. She's like, how do I cheat and help everyone have a good time? And I'm like, how do I make these people never wanna play again?

Sarah Wheeler: I'm like, how do I make this go as fast as possible? So I can get back to something that doesn't drive me crazy.

Claire: Yeah. You know what is one thing that is slightly annoying, and I know it's really done in good faith, but for James's baseball team, these kids range from like second grade to fifth grade, which is just way too wide a spread. Some parent asked for a list of all the kids' numbers and names so that we can cheer them by name when they're playing.

I don't have time for this to cross reference who is what, like I can just say good eye without being like good eye Jacob. You should know you're the [00:14:00] one who's up there who did that.

Sarah Wheeler: Also make yourself known if you need to be cheered for by name, make a name for yourself, you know?

Quinn: But it’s also like on the list of, it's a real not right now thing. I had this conversation with our oldest recently. He was like, you know, Steve? And I was like, I gotta be honest man. Like I love you. You do have good friends. From what I can tell on the surface level, I dunno who the fuck Steve is.

And he's like, why not? I was like, why do I need to know who Steve is?

Claire: Do you know my friends, my old ass boring friends?

Quinn: Exactly right. But if he's at my house? I still don't need to know his name. Like unless it's a hospital situation, in which case I don't fucking know.

Sarah Wheeler: I would like to know his allergies, but I don't, nothing else.

Quinn: Yeah. No. I can't be responsible for all that shit.

Sarah Wheeler: That's amazing. I love, so I work with children. I just I'm always more comfortable with children than adults, so I'm like obsessed with the kids. You know, I know every kid in every classroom my kids have ever been in. And I'm always shocked that like other parents, you know, other parents will be like, hi, you know, I'm whatever.

You know, Marina's dad. And I'm like, yeah, I know. I'm best friends with your [00:15:00] daughter. Like I'm so sorry that she got stung by a bee last week. You know, I think she needs a new pair of sneakers, whatever, you know, and they're like, who the fuck are you? And then they have no idea who my kid is, but I stopped being offended by it. It's just like a professional tendency.

Claire: I would love to be like that. I still don't know half the kids in my older son's class, and by which I mean the girls, 'cause I ended up again at this school.

Sarah Wheeler: It's hard when they're older. This is middle school, right?

Claire: It is middle school, but also my kids' school, I just did not, I'm a bad feminist 'cause I probably should have just fucked up the system on my own, but just don't have in me to lead a systemic change. But I'm on a boy mom text chain. By the way, when I say boy mom, I do mean that I wanna marry my son and no woman will ever be good enough for him. Explicitly what I mean. And he can do whatever he wants. He's a king. But it's freeing to be like, who is that?

Or like show me this girl. What girl does what? And I'll be like, I'll show a picture. Like in the class picture. I'll she looks fun and my son will be like, she swears a lot.

Quinn: Yeah. I feel like I'm equal opportunity like, I don't know any adults' names. I don't [00:16:00] and I've come to terms with that.

Forties is just self-awareness. I'm like, I don't know your fucking name. I won't forget a face. But a name like, no, thank you. So I don't know kids either, but I did notice I did something that, I mean, just saying this out loud will probably get me, you know, sent off to Alligator Prison.

But it's like they come home with their yearbooks and I just take pictures of their friends and their names, and I'm like, that's my version of like a Facebook.

Sarah Wheeler: That's a really good workaround.

Quinn: Right. But then my phone is just filled with…

Claire: That's great. That's fine. I wanna say the Emmett List. Release the Emmett List.

Sarah Wheeler: Yeah. I wanna see these kids. I send the, you know, like when they do the whole class. Now I don't know about you guys, but, you know when I was a kid you'd all be in a picture together?

You'd go stand and the short kids would sit or whatever. And like you'd have physical touch. Now, I don't know if this is 'cause of COVID or just like efficiency. But all the class pictures are like everybody's separate school picture in an array.

Quinn: We still do the class picture.

Sarah Wheeler: Yeah. Oakland public schools are done with that but the nice part is like you get to see [00:17:00] every kid's school picture and there's such goobers. And so I have a tradition with some of my friends where every year we just share the whole class picture.

And then you like, pick your favorite kids. You're like, tell me more about Calvin. Yeah. What's going on with Calvin?

Claire: You can be so defined by one class picture from like your entire life. Oh my God. Nick Kroll, the comedian went to my year at Georgetown.

I didn't know him really, but we had like a Facebook, a physical Facebook. And to this day, like he will always be set in my memory about that picture and what he listed as his interests. And that will come first before anything else he does.

Sarah Wheeler: What were they?

Claire:Well, it was funny 'cause he was trying to be funny.

I think it was a fungus finding and maybe like rugby. And I remember my mom was like, what a weird guy. Why would he say that? And I was like, I think to be funny. And she's like, why would you do that? Mom could not wrap her brain around being ironic, you know?

Sarah Wheeler: Wow. Jokes on your mom. Successful comedian.

Claire: Anyway, those things are set in time. Quinn, can we dive into a couple of ADHD [00:18:00] questions for Sarah? I don't, that wasn't a good, I have no transition or anything.

Quinn: That was a hell of a segue.

Sarah Wheeler: In the spirit of ADHD and neurodiversity affirmation. We don't need segues. Segues are like the man's conversation tool. Let's just go. I'm totally fine with that. And also there will be tangents.

Claire: How many kids do we have between the three of us? Do we have, because Sarah, you have two kids?

Sarah Wheeler: Yeah. I have two. Seven and nine.

Claire: Okay. So it's amazing if we could have a conversation between the three of us. We have seven kids, right in between all of us. That's too many.

Quinn: Are you ready for a tangent? This is a real we're going from A to B to like F. How many kids? Claire, two. Sarah? How many? Two. I've got three.

Sarah Wheeler: Yeah.

Quinn: I've still got one in the freezer. Would you ever consider it if someone was like, oh, turns out you've still got one in the freezer, an embryo in the freezer.

Sarah Wheeler: But your kids are 10, 11, and 12? I don't know. I had a really hard time letting go of the third kid. I mean, not like physically, I didn't put them out to sea. They [00:19:00] don't exist.

But I come from a big family. There's five kids in my family. I love my brothers and sisters. And it was really hard for me to be like, no I can't do this. I think ultimately it wouldn't be nice to anyone else, I mean, particularly myself, but I would be a crazy person.

I think I've learned in the last 10 years that I've been a parent that, I mean this is kind of true for everyone, but like in a special way, I'm a complete psycho when I don't get enough sleep. And I just think unless I could afford like a night doula for a year I think putting a baby into my family right now would be really mean.

But it's hard. It's hard to let go. I finally okayed the vasectomy last year. So that was like, it's over, but my little brother's having his first baby and I'm just like, oh, could I? I mean, I don't have any on ice, but maybe there's some eggs still kicking around in here.

Quinn: I forget every year until I get the bill that it's in the Jurassic Park freezer.

Sarah Wheeler: Do you know what it is?

Quinn: Dana seems to believe it's a girl. I don't remember that part, but I've blocked it all out.

[00:20:00] Sarah, our story was like, we had a thousand miscarriages and IVFs and then the first one. It was like, they put the embryo and they're like, it's grade D, best of luck. It's not gonna fucking work. Like on Last Hope. And then it's, he's 12 now with ADHD. And then the second one they were like, well, you're geriatric of course.

If you wanna have a second one, you should try now. We're like, but he's still a baby. How would we have another baby? They're like, well, it's up to you. And that worked after two, and then of course the third one was an accident, but it always comes down to the same thing. You see a baby and you're like, ah, I've got three great ones like. What would that fourth one be like?

Sarah Wheeler: Well, yeah, it’s rolling the dice, you know? It's always exciting.

Quinn: But what you're doing when you ask that question though, is what would they be like is you're considering it in isolation, you're not considering like you did, which is it will fuck everything up. It will fuck the whole system up. Which by the way, we're all here 'cause it's already fucked up.

Sarah Wheeler: Well, yeah. And also, I mean, as an ADHDer I kinda like fucking the system up. So I really have to talk myself out of the [00:21:00] temptation of that. You know, there's like always the glistening whatever shiny image of like the lie of what, having a fucking third kid when my kids are like a hundred years old. And, you know, and I basically have a broken body would be like.

But kind of you're just like, why the fuck not? But I could do it. It's like why I never pay for parking meters. I'm like, I could get away with it. I can do it. I can pull it off.

Quinn: No, I really appreciate your perspective. Well, if you want one, I can probably have it sent somehow.

Sarah Wheeler: I did always wish I could be a surrogate, and I think those years, I am 41.

I do not think anybody's knocking on my womb, but I was always like, maybe I could be a surrogate. 'Cause I like being pregnant. I like giving birth and you know, people probably just want me to, you know, house their babies. No one asked and I'm old, so.

Claire: Well, you would be great surrogate based on everything.

Sarah Wheeler: Thank you so much.

Quinn: Yeah, a hundred percent.

Claire: We didn't have issues conceiving luckily, so I don't have like this [00:22:00] question in mind, but my cousin has four kids and it did break her. But I respect her.

But one thing that she told me about is that when you have that fourth kid you are among all these parents who are so much younger than you and your fourth kid is like the one you give the least shit about. And this is like all of these new parents, first kids.

Sarah Wheeler: You are not going to the mother daughter dance or whatever the fuck.

Claire: Yeah. She said like she would have so much planned for her first four in terms of activities and play dates, and the last kids like, forget it. Like they get nothing.

Sarah Wheeler: I was a fourth kid.

Claire: Oh, really?

Sarah Wheeler: Yeah, I can attest to that.

Quinn: Yeah. No. And it does feel like if you don't have ADHD, like four kids is bringing it on because what the fuck, how are you gonna like, yeah. It's chaos.

Sarah Wheeler: Yeah. Right. I also, you know, I mean, parenting is hard. It's beautiful. You know, I'm happy doing it.

I did it. I mean, it's still going on very much so, very active. but the ADHD of it all is, you know, is real. Like feeding my children is sometimes so overwhelming [00:23:00] to me that I just wanna sit down and cry. The idea that I have to track and plan for multiple meals a day that involve people's tastes. And have a, you know, schedule around them is so overwhelming to me. Being places on time. I don't know how I would like add in another variable into that.

Quinn: Nap times again..

Claire: Seriously? Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. Car seats. I refuse. I really shouldn't have gotten by on how little I knew about car seats in terms of installing them and taking them out and things like that. And it's not, wasn't gonna get better. And so yeah. It's not ideal to give that another shot.

Sarah Wheeler: My husband made the wise choice of becoming the car seat person in our family. I have never touched a car seat. In or out.

Quinn: My wife is the, she is ADHD and works hard and is all great, but can't do meals. But we just call her like, she's the fun one. I'm just like, I do all the other shit. 'cause one, it checks the box for me. But two, but also because we know that if she does it, it'll be fun until no one gets to soccer [00:24:00] practice or school or whatever.

Sarah Wheeler: Do you do all the meals?

Quinn: I try to do as much of the calendar, meal, like all the logistics stuff I can, and sometimes that's like I'm the rigid one about stuff. And we try to meet in the middle about it, which I do a poor job of, of course.

Sarah Wheeler: You know, the Bluey episode where like they're going to the pool and the dad's taking them to the pool and the mom's like, did you pack the bag? And don't you need sunscreen? He's like, I got it, whatever. And then he shows up to the pool and he like doesn't have the goggles or the sunscreen or the swim shirt.

And the kids are all sad. And then the mom shows up and saves them. Yeah. I'm like, I'm the dad.

Quinn: Yeah. No. I just, again, like we would fight over those kind of things for so long. 'cause you think I'm a competent adult, I work full-time, this and that, but again, coming back to ADHD or control issues on the other side. Whatever they are. Like finding the, if you're lucky enough to find the compromise and find the self-awareness for each of you and what strengths and weaknesses are, which again is like never solved completely. That has been very [00:25:00] helpful.

Claire: I found finally a lunch technique that really works for us because the boys, they do get fed lunch twice a week at their current summer camp. And then that's three days a week where we have the onus of packing our kids lunches and we have been lazy and relying on Lunchables, which I hate 'cause they offer nothing nutritionally.

And they're so expensive. And they're so wasteful. But yeah, so I was telling my husband while he was getting the Lunchables out that I wish we were giving the kids better lunches. And he pointed out gently that he is the one doing all of the morning prep over the summer and taking the boys to camp.

And the Lunchables is the best he can do. So like implied, shut the fuck up. Yeah. And I was like, you know what? This system is working. This system is fine. I am satisfied with the results and I'm gonna back off. We're gonna just stay the course.

Sarah Wheeler: I come from a long line of therapists and my dad worked with children as a therapist for a long time and one of his big things was always like, does it work?

You know, is it working? You know, because there's a lot of am I [00:26:00] supposed to do that? And I think when you find something like that as a parent you should celebrate it. And stick with it and feel like, okay, it's cool that we do this, you know? Yeah. Great. We found Lunchables, you know.

Claire: And I celebrate not being the competent one.

Like I am happy to, you know, be like, I guess I didn't own this and I'm not going to take over it just because I wanna see it done differently.

Sarah Wheeler: You can't back seat your partner's domain. If it's their domain, fuck off.

Claire: Yes. Yeah, exactly. Okay. I have a summertime ADHD question, just to remind me, do either of your kids have ADHD or only you are blessed?

Sarah Wheeler: You know, the jury's still out. Life is long. Neither of them are presenting with problems related to ADHD I guess I will say. No, I'm really the ADHDer in my family, one of my kids said like he's half ADHD because you know, his dad he's, half Jewish. My husband is not ADHD. At all. So my kids are not, but, you know, I'm an educational psychologist. I work a lot with kids with [00:27:00] ADHD. I do a lot of parent coaching, teacher coaching. ADHD is like always been I don't know, it's like my favorite demographic.

And then I got a diagnosis at 37 and I was like, what? Like I burst into the room extra, extra. And my husband was like, yeah, obviously, what? Are you serious?

Claire: We're not doing too bad. Knock on wood with the summer ADHD we're doing okay. But the main thing that I still struggle with is my ADHD kid, transitions are rough for him, particularly getting off screens. But anytime he's doing something that gets locked in on that you have to like go to camp or have dinner or whatever.

He can be a real asshole right after that. And, you know, we do our best to be like, you know, what do you need to make this easier for you when you get off? Or if you need a couple minutes or whatever. But sometimes I just don't have it in me to be understanding basically. And I'm like, you know what?

I'm sick of being treated like fucking shit. 'cause like you were just having a good time facilitated by me and now [00:28:00] comes a caretaking time that's also facilitated by me. And anyway, I just wonder what you tell parents who are like, I know I have to give this kid some grace, but like, where is the fine line between grace and just taking a bunch of shit from a kid who is irritable 'cause he has to do something he doesn't want to.

Sarah Wheeler: Well, it's hard. First of all, it's hard. You're just not gonna, we're all humans in like a home together. And you know, if you're lucky, we're all comfortable with each other. So you're gonna, there's gonna be some nasty moments. And that's just to be expected. It's okay. I think that, you know, my experience working with parents and, you know, kind of checking myself as a parent is you can't overestimate how much energy it takes kids to do like their daily life tasks. I mean, you're talking about the summer. Definitely during the school year. You know, I have a lot of conversations with parents that are like, why is my kid such a little bitch after school?

Or you know, or I wanna take him somewhere after school, but he always just wants to go home and play Legos or be on a [00:29:00] screen. It's like, yeah. While you were at work, probably just sitting at a desk and being on Zoom and feeling bored. Your kid was like having to learn, following someone else's agenda.

You know, navigating social dynamics. If they're an ADHDer they also have this layer probably of, you know, regulating themselves, maybe getting a lot more negative feedback than other kids. They're fucking exhausted and they're burnt out and so I think that it's important just to kind of have that empathy and remember that like we come in hot, like, all right, let's go.

And it's hard. You know, the other thing is that like there's a therapist, I really like a child therapist in the Bay Area named Jonathan Barkin. And I was at a conversation that he led about preschoolers and screens, and he had all the parents get out our phones and do whatever it is that we do that kind of you know, zones us out and regulates us on phones, like scroll Instagram or play Candy Crush or whatever.

And then after five minutes he was like, okay, put [00:30:00] your phone away. And, you know, and it was like, it was this shock. So I do think it's a lot, it seems normal to us. We've been preparing for something. We've got the bag to go, right? But to say to a kid now's the time, it can feel like a shock to the system, and ADHDers can be just like a lot more sensitive to that.

I try to, one thing that I think is like top three pervasive parenting tip for me is like, how much can I shut up in any interaction? How can I interact with my kid and get them to move along with basically as little talking as possible? Sometimes you notice that's the overwhelming piece that like you're coming in saying, okay, duh duh duh duh duh and the difference between that and saying you know, pointing to the off button, hits really different, especially with a kid who gets like overwhelmed easily.

Claire: Okay. That's a good tip. I might try that. I've never tried that.

Sarah Wheeler: I don't know if any of that feels like [00:31:00] it applies to the thing that you're talking about.

Claire: Yeah. Yeah. I think I just you know, there's certain days when you just feel like your fuse is extra short or you just, or you've just been told no or been spoken to nastily so many times that you're like, even though on a good day, I do understand how you function and that you can only do so much. You also on the other side of it, you're like, I'm so fucking sick of it. Just like being talked to this way. And I, you know, it sounds very unkind and ungentle, but that's just like how it, because sometimes I'm like, do other parents just take shit constantly? And that's just the secret, you know?

Sarah Wheeler: I struggle with that as a parent. My kids are like, I feel like getting more rude. And I do a lot of looking at other people's kids and being like, those kids aren't rude. You know? Like my nieces aren't rude like that, you know, to their parents they are, they totally can be.

Kids go through different phases too. I think if I have any grounding in it, it comes from knowing that it's totally okay for me to be like, I don't like the way that you're talking to me.

Or I'm gonna give you some space. You know, [00:32:00] just being like, I don't wanna be around this right now.

It can be hard sometimes when also you have to go to swim class or whatever, but even a minute sometimes is cool. And again, sometimes just like, the shutting up. There's a thing from one of my favorite like social emotional curriculums, the Kimochis, that's like, you can be mad, but you can't be mean.

Claire: That's Quinn's thing. Right. Don't you say? What do you do?

Quinn: Oh yeah, no you get to be tired or hungry or whatever. You don't get to be a fucking asshole. And by the way, like I didn't learn that till I was 40. And it's totally a process, but we're gonna start now

Sarah Wheeler: It's not like when you say that all of a sudden they're like, oh, you're right but I think there's lots of things that parents that like, even if we don't see some immediate behavioral change, there is value in being like this is, you know, a principle to me. And it's important. And I'm gonna keep returning to it if nothing else, to just have my own anchor.

Claire: Yeah, no, you would be proud of me, Sarah. 'cause my kid was being [00:33:00] a dick to me. And I screamed at him after I closed the car door. And he must have heard me screaming from inside.

'cause he looked behind him, but he didn't hear me scream to him. But then after a few minutes after the degree, and we had some quieting, he just said, sorry very quietly. And I was like, yeah. And I was like, I'll take that. The sorry is better than nothing. Totally. And I did not extract it from him. And he recognized that.

Sarah Wheeler: You don't need a lecture then it's that was the learning is they kind of just figured it out. But it is crazy to be a fucking kid. I mean, again, I don't think, I'm not like promoting, you know, let your children abuse you. But like it is wild to remember what childhood is like, the speed at which you are growing.

The level of, you know, things that are happening to you that are new every day. It's hard to be a kid.

Quinn: I've told this story of my oldest when, you know, again to rehash, tale as old as time, you know, graduated fifth grade here, middle school, sixth, seventh, eighth you know, graduates fifth grade.

He is like, I'm gonna be with the fucking big kids. And two [00:34:00] weeks in, he was like. I am with the fucking big kids. Holy shit. Could not sleep was like, oh my god, this and this 7,000 things going through his head. And he's the ADHD one as well. I remember sitting down being like very clear he was being, you know, existentially tormented because every moment of every day is existential once you get to that point.

And then it gets worse. Everything is life or death. And I remember being like, what's going on? This and this. He's like, everything, everybody's got drama and people mad about this and I can't tell. And the girls are nice to each other here, but they're not here. And then there's guys and I feel like they've all got their lives figured out.

And I was like, yeah, man. There's a reason they make movies about middle school. Like nobody escapes alive. Because again, like you're saying, it is a lot. You're not just coloring pictures anymore, man. You still don't get to be a dick to me, but I'm trying to have more empathy. 'cause it really is the first, and again, memory is what it is, how it actually operates. But it is the first stage where I'm like, Ooh, I really remember that. You know? And how [00:35:00] rough it was and I just tried to tell him the other day, I was like, everything everyone is doing or saying is fueled by raging insecurities.

And it's usually not about you. But that doesn't mean you don't have all of that yourself. Like it's fucking gnarly. And then you come home and your dad’s like pick your shit up off the ground.

Sarah Wheeler: Exactly. Exactly. Has more demands, even if they're nice or even, you know, even if your parents are like, it's time for cleanup.

I mean, I'm sure you've heard this before too, but it's also you know, if you're lucky, your kids feel safe at home. And so when we feel safe we let ourselves suck a little bit, you know? And I work with a lot of kids where either they don't feel safe at home and they're kind of like shoving that down or you see the other thing where they're kind of letting it slide in other places, which creates, you know, sadly even more problems.

Quinn: I remember very early on, our daughter who's in the middle was very difficult and she has mostly recovered, but I mean, she was probably two when some [00:36:00] mom told my wife like, oh yeah, they're always gonna save their worst behavior for you. And she was like, fuck. Always? Because at least in part, that they feel safe, right?

Claire: Yeah. I hate that shit though.

Sarah Wheeler: I'm still such a bitch to my mom sometimes. I mean, she's an amazing woman. She's like the greatest mom and I'm just like, I can feel it in my body. I'm fucking 41 and I can feel the vitriol.

Which is usually right when I feel insecure or I'm overwhelmed. I'm like, God, why are you chewing like that?

Claire: Yeah. We have a family trip coming up and it's gonna be me and the kids, maybe my husband, my brother who doesn't have kids, and his husband, and then my parents who are Boomers and it'll be like regression city, that's for sure.

And I'm trying to think ahead of time, like my escape routes and you know, how I can manage it or find healthy explorations of my various forms of grief and rage. Okay. I have another ADHD question for you, Sarah, out of the blue. But the parents who are kind of new to medicating their kids for ADHD [00:37:00], I know it depends on the kids, but by and large, what do you find yourself telling them when they say, should I take the summers off medicating my kid?

Sarah Wheeler: I mean, for better or worse I approach most of these things with a lot of nuance. I think there's no one answer to a lot of questions about something like ADHD.

And so I'm less interested in that. I mean, that's like the bad news I will tell parents, is I wish that there was like, you know, some big research-based answer that I felt really comfortable with that I could tell you. But there isn't. The good news is that you get to kind of think about who your kid is and who you are and, you know, make an interesting decision and see how it goes and be a human being about it.

So I think there are some people in my field, you know, I diagnose ADHD, but I don't dispense medication. But who would say that, you know, if you have ADHD, you have ADHD and it should be kind of a challenge all the time. And so why would you take kids off of meds on the [00:38:00] weekends or the summer? I used to, I think, really ascribe to that.

You know, now I think the more kind of families and kids that I've known, the more that I think it's really complicated. You know, some kids have side effects that aren't great. It messes with their eating or their sleeping. And so it's always like a compared to what thing. Right. It's like meds compared to what. And so if the what of going off of meds is kind of has some benefits to it, that's an important thing to think about. I think we don't do enough talking to kids about how they feel on their meds. And really making space for that.

And so I think what a kid wants is really important there. Some kids wanna a break. Other kids say I don't feel like myself unless I'm on my meds. And so I would trust them there. So I don't think there's a wrong thing to do except making some executive [00:39:00] decision without your kids' input. That is harmful.

Claire: I used to think of ADHD medication as like you're sit down and focus pills, you know, and like your be good pills. And then I realized that my son and I heard that another woman, another Witch mentioned this, I forgot exactly how she said it, but it was like, my son has social engagement issues if he doesn't take his meds and he needs them every day.

Sarah Wheeler: Impulsivity.

Claire: And now it's easy for me to say, 'cause now we've been through this for several years, but you're going into it, you don't know. But I'm like, yeah, I can tell my son feels dysregulated when he is not medicated, you know? And he's not good at articulating how he does feel when he's on his medication.

But yeah, I used to think like it's some kind of form of freedom for them to be unmedicated, but that's not necessarily true depending on the kid. Quinn, do you guys do summers off or weekends off for medication?

Quinn: No, not yet. I mean, so it's been three-ish years, something like that. I mean, we'll occasionally forget obviously, but we try not to, especially 'cause he's also got some decent allergies. So it just happens to be that we take all of the stuff at the same time. [00:40:00]

Sarah Wheeler: That's my problem with taking ADHD meds, remembering to do it every day. I had a little song that I would sing when I did it to like, you know, kind of make the moment bigger. But I would still forget.

Claire: Prove it.

Sarah Wheeler: Oh, it goes, I'm taking my meds, I'm taking my meds. And then once I take it, I go, I took my meds. I took my meds. You can keep that.

Quinn: Very straightforward. Well, that'll be the intro.

Sarah Wheeler: But you don't take time off really?

Quinn: And we just don't, it's, you know, his is definitely more the impulse control stuff.

But also like his mind in a beautiful way, but also increasingly frustrating way to him now that he can separate himself a little bit and is consciously aware of it, is like untamable. And that can be totally fine if he's on a field or in a pool or whatever, as long as he is like literally following the rules, which is anyone's guess at that point truly.

'cause he is not totally aware of it. The hardest [00:41:00] time is honestly like trying to get to sleep if he doesn't do it, because he cannot turn it off and he is like a small man at this point, and we'll still come into our room and be like, I can’t and we have great sleep hygiene. We're crazy about it.

Sarah Wheeler:Yeah. A lot of ADHDers have trouble with sleep.

Quinn: Yeah. The biggest reason we finally did it, and we weren't against it at all. We were just like, he's a boy. Maybe it will grow. We'll see like how much of it affected, it was during COVID, et cetera, et cetera.

But it was during COVID in the sense that he wasn't in a classroom, but this kid was under his desk on Zoom school in 10 seconds. And so was every kid for a while, obviously. But he, faster than I thought, and less, except for get back in front of your screen, he became very aware that he was incapable of focusing the way a lot of kids were.

And he started to get pretty, pretty down about it. And that's when we were like. Full stop. We're not gonna, that's not great. [00:42:00] Obviously want have all your emotions, but I was like, oh, this turns into 14 years old, that's not a great thing. To start to really, the self-awareness is one thing, but like the things he said to himself was like, oh, we need to help more.

Sarah Wheeler: I think that's a big turning point for a lot of parents in that meds decision is when they start to hear their kids kind of feeling bad about themselves.

Quinn: Yeah. I was like, oh, we've done everything, we've done every ritual and things about, you know?

Sarah Wheeler: Yeah. And it seems like taking meds would make you feel bad about yourself and sometimes it does, right?

Yeah. Sometimes a kid does internalize I am, something's wrong with me and I have to take this thing to fix it. But if you do it well and you know, you can't control everything that you know your kid internalizes, but I think you can have a narrative that is affirming that helps build the child that you want to turn into the adults you wanna see, right? That is the long game, right? That you are growing this person who's able to say, this is how my brain works, this is when it works for me, this is [00:43:00] when it doesn't. Here are the tools that I have to try to work around that. And medication is one of them.

And you know, and ultimately I do it for myself. But the other thing too, you know, just to go back Claire, to you know, the being in the classroom versus not, is I think a reality, you know, in 2025 is that we do medicate a lot of kids who are ADHD because we want them to be more amenable to the classroom. Right. And because with great love teachers can't handle them.

Claire: Yeah.

Sarah Wheeler: And we probably wouldn't medicate them if they were in a different kind of situation. ADHD is a totally environmentally bound condition. You know, it really depends on context. And for a lot of kids, like the context is just so different during the summer that they still have ADHD, but it doesn't feel impairing. And for other kids it does.

Quinn: For us just environmentally, like the thing that doesn't change is we're, again, we keep [00:44:00] active, but we try not to do too many things. They totally all do better when they are doing some sort of, however you wanna phrase it, activity, athletics, whatever.

Because it does help them sleep. It does tire them out. This and this. It helps them eat all that stuff. But, you know, we were also just on him so much more than we wanted to be as parents. And that also seemed really unfair to him, like in things where I'm like, he has no idea he's doing this or not doing this.

And that just seems really unfair. Don't I want this to be as much as you can with a 9, 10, 11, 12-year-old boy, you know, who's still a moron, like a more practically productive and accepting thing as opposed to just oh my God, come back to the table over and over and over.

Sarah Wheeler: And some of that is parental change, right?

Some of that is like we have to own, you know, are we having reasonable expectations? Are we, you know, are we having empathy? You know, can we notice? Like I've never had a parent do this, but I have teachers that I work with sometimes with a kid that's particularly [00:45:00] driving them crazy.

Just try not to change their behavior. They always do a little bit, but take a sticky note in your pocket all day and just write a slash every time you redirect them, even if it's nice, even if it's like, Hey, could you get back to your seat, right? It doesn't have to be mean to feel like overwhelming.

So there is some adult change there. But I think that's really valid. You know, there was this big Paul Tough article about ADHD and kids in the New York Times Magazine recently. I don't know if you read that. I wrote a little bit in my newsletter about my response to it.

I mean, I thought I had a lot of good things in it, but, you know, the main thing that he was talking about is that these long-term studies of the efficacy of ADHD meds kind of don't really hold up over, you know, really long periods of time, 10 years, things like that, that we don't see that the like promised benefits of stimulants last.

And really make meaningful change. I have a lot of, you know, bones to [00:46:00] pick with kind of how those studies measure things. The limitations of looking at a child's life through just a couple variables. But I think one thing that, you know, that definitely isn't looked at, that he didn't really talk about was, well, what does it do to the family dynamic when you have a kid who is more regulated, who is less impulsive who, like you described your son feeling kind of all over the place who is not feeling that way anymore.

And that stuff matters and it's harder to quantify even if you give a parent like a survey, but it's not just about, you know, academic achievement and you know, not doing drugs or whatever. It's also you know how much you're having negative interactions with your kids matters. And you should work on that. That is our responsibility too. But it is of course, transactional.

Quinn: Same thing like, you know, teachers should make a million dollars, but same thing with their coaches. Like I would love for the coaches to make every effort to accommodate each kid [00:47:00] as much as they possibly can.

Whatever their abilities or restrictions, don't care. We're not in high school or college or whatever, you know, it's not serious sports, but at the same time they've got 15 other fucking kids to deal with as well as my kid. I've got two other kids in you know, it is about the environment,

Claire: Before we had our ADHD, I don't wanna say under control, but medicated. We had a good therapist. We're not in a bad place right now, but yeah, we certainly would think about how we looked, you know, and how it reflected on us, that kind of behavior, you know, and you just get so worn down.

Quinn: That was it. It's just like I, and that's I guess my empathy button. And also I've coached kids forever and I love kids and, and this and this. We are already asking a lot of them. Not to say okay, I gotta fix my kids so it's easier for the coach. No, but you can't separate those things entirely.

And these teachers who I see them go to such lengths, but it is also my job as a parent to make it the best environment for, like I'm a big believer and I read a whole long thing about like giving a shit about other people's kids as well. And that matters. You know, [00:48:00] my kid's not gonna ruin the learning environment, but he's gonna make it harder.

Claire: Well that was the shaming element that I sort felt for everybody.

Quinn: And that's what he started to notice. He was just like, everyone's always on me. And I'm like, that is tough. 'cause it's not in your control.

Claire: Yeah, no, I felt that way 'cause I remember getting calls from school 'cause he was like, running away from the principal or hiding under the table. And I have obviously my own hangups about gender and having boys that I'll work through in time, but I had this straw man, good little girl in my head who was like, this little girl, whoever she is in class, just wants to learn and behave.

And my crazy kid won't let her. And I felt so bad, you know? And so much shame for that. And I don't think about, think in terms of that anymore, but that's how I was, like, he's ruining things for all, like the good kids basically. I'm glad, again, I've gotten my shit together more or less.

Sarah Wheeler: Yeah, and I mean, I wanna hold that, like I work with teachers a lot, like general ed teachers and you know, I'm always working with teachers to kind of be able to tolerate that more and to have better strategies and to, you know, there are ways that you can design lessons that are much more engaging [00:49:00] to an ADHD brain and are much likely to kind of bring out the things that are challenging in an ADHD kid.

Right? So that's important and this is the reality, right? And I have a friend who has an ADHD kid, and her thing that she always, it's become like a joke, but I know she's serious in some ways is forest school, you know, is she's should we get an IEP? Or should I send her to forest school?

Should we do meds or should I send her to forest school? And it's such a good kind of placeholder for this idea that there could be an environment where our kid didn't need to change to be happy. Right. And I have seen some cases where that kind of works out. I have seen parents that, you know, pulled their kids that did Waldorf school or forest school or that, I don't think that then those kids never had any challenges.

Right. There's still the social interactions that we're talking about. There's camp, it's really hard to, you know, in [00:50:00] the modern world, set up an environment where an ADHD kid can never have problems. You know, but we can hold that yes, if there was more forest school in all schools, probably it would be less of a problem.

Right? Probably other kids would be bothered, less teachers would be bothered less. At the same time as being like, well, these are my options because the world my kids lives in and they feel bad about themselves. Like you said, right?

Claire: I have a goal of creating one of those prison schools that, like Paris Hilton was taken to only just like less just on the verge of legal and not abusive. So that there is an option. Just one that your kid cannot say that you are a bad parent.

Quinn: Yes. Forest schools would be amazing. Are they an option? No, we're gonna have no schools in six months. So let's do what we can.

Sarah Wheeler: Most certainly. Right. We're all gonna be in forest schools.

Quinn: Yeah. We're all gonna be in fucking forest school foraging for shit. With Paris Hilton. But yeah, again, that is really the, and we focus on a lot in my other work, which is like helping people [00:51:00] understand first like control what you can control.

Right. It's great to hope for that stuff, and there's a lot you can do to actually make your schools better. And I can go on about that all fucking day. Not just for your kids, certainly. But yeah, like larger structural things while your kid is having a hard time. It's a tough one.

Sarah Wheeler: Yeah. I mean, because of what I do for work, I do like neurodiversity trainings in my school and for the teachers and I also, a group of parents, we do in April we do an autism acceptance month kind of reading. Where we go to every class and we talk about neurodiversity and you know, it's not a big thing, but yeah. Yeah. I will want, you know, all kids to kind of have more acceptance and all teachers.

Claire: Can I ask you two more Q and A type questions? One thing is that I get questions sometimes from Evil Witches readers, and I think I've emailed you from this, asking for help for people who are married to neurodiverse folks.

And it makes it very challenging to co-parent when your other co-parent is, you know, starts writing the grocery list and then runs [00:52:00] off and leaves a trail of destruction behind them. So what helps you or what have you told other people helps kind of set you up as a parent with ADHD to do the parenting and whatever else you need in a way that works with your brain?

Sarah Wheeler: I will say I'm married to a very patient person who like I've been with for 20 years and really likes me. And I cannot believe my luck. But I think you know, Quinn was talking about this, just the kind of self-awareness. I think that for me, when I got my ADHD diagnosis and I started kind of framing a lot of the way that I work in the language of ADHD, it really helped me be able to kind of advocate in my relationship for what I needed and talk kind of impersonally about my brain and how it worked best. And so that's when I got to a place where I could be like I am never going to fill up the car with gas.

I don't know how to explain this to you, but think about something you hate. [00:53:00] That is how I feel about filling up the car with gas. Everything about it makes me completely insane. Would you, instead of just being like, Hey, we need more gas and me kind of pretending I'm gonna do it, and then, you know, basically just pushing it until we're like, you know, very close to breakdown, would you just do it?

And he was like, yeah. That is so different from kind of denial and avoidance Right. To just be like, would you give me this gift? I’m doing this thing I hate that you don't really mind. And also is there something you hate that I can do?

Claire: Yeah.

Sarah Wheeler: And so I think when I see, you know, folks where it's the most challenging to have an ADHD person in the couple, it's usually when that person is not really super self-aware of their ADHD.

And so that's hard when you have a partner that you like want to grow and they're not. But I think it's also very reasonable to sit someone down and say, I love you. I [00:54:00] wanna be able to be with you in this. And I think the way to do that is to have some education and get some kind of language around this.

And so that's what I see that's really good. There's some, you know, adult education resources that I like more than others. But yeah, I mean, it's hard. It’s hard to be partnered with an ADHD person, but it's also like fun, like you said you know, when your wife is the fun one.

Quinn: It's not even close. Yeah.

Sarah Wheeler: Yeah. I think spending less time, this is true of kids too. Spending less time in my relationship with my husband kind of in a weird dynamic about the things that I suck at. There's less time for me to do the things that I'm good at.

Quinn: But it's also let's take a step back and go I don't have ADHD. I am also difficult to have a relationship with for a variety of other fun fucking reasons. You know? It's like there's always something. We've all got it. It's hard 'cause you're an adult and you're like, well, I've made it this far.

And it's like, yeah. I mean, sometimes by the skin of your fucking teeth, [00:55:00] you know? And how about, and you've overcome with these. But now you live with another person. And you are in charge of three other people, which is a whole other fucking problem. Even if everything was going great, no matter how much care you can get.

'cause now you're also dealing with grandparents and you're also dealing with their likes and opinions and their schedules, and they're all slightly different. No, remember, this one doesn't nap anymore. Like it took us a long time and you're fucking tired.

Sarah Wheeler: I think you can't say that enough.

Quinn: Which makes everything 1000% worse. Everything is 1000% worse.

Sarah Wheeler: I do think those kinds of disruptions bring about, you know, and not to sugarcoat it, but there is something interesting about disrupting your typical dynamics as a couple that allows you to kind of learn some things that, you know, might be like breaking the fourth wall in a little bit.

Of what couples do together. You know, so I have friends where you know, the mom does not do mornings. She doesn't wake up. She does not wake [00:56:00] up, does not get the kids ready. She does pick up and it's great. It really works for them. You know, and so I think sometimes we think we have to like always be in things together and we think that we have to.

Quinn: We fought over that shit for so long.

Sarah Wheeler: And, you know, women, you know, more power to you two, because like women do become the kind of logistical tracking things default. And a lot of mothers I know with ADHD feel like an added pressure.

Claire: Something I have do with my son is that he does have some superpowers when he does take his medication, he really locks in, like when it comes to things like puzzles, art, very detailed art, sports.

Do you have any superpowers as an ADHD parent where you like, are really good at something that like, you know, your typical boring neurotypical parent might not be as good at?

Sarah Wheeler: Well, I told you about the claw game. And I've won some, I have won some [00:57:00] stuffed animals that like can't be taken on a plane.

You know what I'm talking about. I mean, I think that I am able to turn anything into an adventure. Sometimes that drives my kids crazy. They're like, can't we just go do the one thing? But you know, when they were little, like before COVID we used to do bus adventures. This is like where my brain is just like so happy. Like where we just get on a bus, there's four different buses in our neighborhood. Pick a corner, pick a direction, and then you just ride the bus and look outside. And when you see something good, you stop and you get off and you go see that.

And then you get on another bus and, you know, that is I think my best place as a parent is when I'm kind of delighting in the little things about the world alongside my children.

I don't do great with sitting and drawing or my kids love doing art. I'm like, happy for them. I find that now, if I have a crossword with me, a newspaper or something then I can kind of do that.

Claire: [00:58:00] All right. One more question and I'm acting as a Quin doesn't have its own questions, but these are my main questions that I wanted to ask you.

Quinn: No one cares what I think. This is my whole life.

Claire: Back to school unfortunately is gonna be a topic before we know it.

Sarah Wheeler: Yeah, I know I'm already getting like PR emails. I mean, I have since May about back to school stuff.

Claire: Let's say someone is listening to this podcast, and their kid does have an ADHD diagnosis in hand.

Let's say this kid is somewhere between elementary school, middle school. Is there anything that a parent with a kid with ADHD needs to think of big picture in terms of back to school that parents might not otherwise? Like I'm thinking, for instance, a friend of mine showed me a template.

We talked about this a few episodes ago, introducing her kid to his incoming teacher saying here's what I'm good at, here's where I need help, here's where I may need some accommodations. What are other things that parents who have kids with ADHD or that the kids you work with might wanna think about ahead of time before school starts?

I know there's IEPs, you know, to track down that depends on the school district, but anything else that you would tell parents besides getting your hair cut and your school supplies and whatnot that, you know, it's good to have in [00:59:00] hand before school starts?

Sarah Wheeler: Yeah, I mean I think for all kids, I think about do they need some downtime before school starts? I know for some, you know, there's kind of like an ethos that ADHD kids need structure. I find that to sometimes be very true and sometimes not at all. And structure can look really different for different purposes in a different context.

And so there are definitely some ADHD kids that do not wanna be kicking around for a week before school starts. And for others like that would be incredibly nourishing to just be like, or even two days, you have two free days. You know, do whatever you need to kind of veg out and recharge.

I think that it's probably not too late for this. I always encourage parents to gracefully and humbly enter into conversations with their school principals and teachers about class placement for their ADHD kids. You know. Never ask for a specific teacher that will like, put you on a principal's bad side, but [01:00:00] just kind of it checking in about Hey, I just, you know, last year we learned this about like it worked so well that Miss Whatever, you know, had this kind of teaching style and her classroom kind of felt that way.

I just wanted to, you know, I'm just thinking about this year and I'm wondering, if that can be considered. And then I just always to know back to that piece about how exhausting a school day is for a kid that just to prepare yourself as a parent for you might have a week, you might have a month of your kid just needs to come home and be in a dark place.

With a snack. Maybe they are on screens more than usual, and you can, if you feel like you can pull that back when it's time. But they might be really exhausted for a while. And it's okay.

Claire: That's really good advice. I think, especially for newer parents. I still was fucked up by the song I used to listen to when Paul was a baby, like from this children's musician.

She had this line about the best part of my day every day is when I get home from work and I see you. And that makes, I always [01:01:00] put this image in my mind of these parents and children being like reuniting at the end of the day and being so happy to see each other instead of being like, oh you know, and this is the snack you give me.

And fuck you. You want me to what? And so it's been nice to be like, you're not a bad person for just everyone retreating.

Sarah Wheeler: It's so hard. Yes, I have these images in my head or you know, first thing in the morning or have a great day at camp. And it's just it's sometimes it's sweet and other times it's not.

And the way that our brains work is we pay more attention to the not sweet ones too. And we remember those more. I think it comes back to the thing of could you challenge yourself to shut up after school and just what would it be like to just drive in the car or whatever without asking about their day and with just kind of being together.

If you think you have a kid who kind of is easily overwhelmed. You know, not asking them what they want to eat. Giving them a plate of a few options and just kind of letting them chill and giving them that kind of break time before you get into your needy I wanna connect with you time.

Claire: Yeah. [01:02:00] Or I admit, I do this to myself where I will put their things on my to-do list, honestly. So I will be like, I can't rest until they finish their schoolwork.

Sarah Wheeler: That’s a you problem.

Claire: Yeah. That is a me problem.

Okay, Sarah, tell us about your podcast and people like look crossover, if people are listening to Not Right Now, why they should listen to The Mother Of It All and also what your rules are in terms of talking about your kids. I dunno if you have a kind of guidelines for that.

Sarah Wheeler: That's an interesting one. I've been having some conversations about that with a few different people. Yeah. My podcast is called The Mother of It All. It's hosted with the lovely Miranda Rake and we kind of dive into the culture of motherhood and parenthood. We have a lot of guests and sometimes we just, you know, jabber on together.

And yeah, it's super fun. We just finished our second season. You can listen to it everywhere you listen to podcasts and you can subscribe on Substack. And then I also, for about five years now, I've written a substack called Mom Spreading that is kind of loosely about parenting, neurodivergence [01:03:00] existence.

Quinn:Incredible name.

Sarah Wheeler: Yeah. I couldn't believe it wasn't taken. We thought of it and then we were like, surely and we looked it up and it was just porn. So now it's me and porn. And then I have a parent coaching practice.

I do a lot of navigation with parents too in terms of like, when you have a neurodivergent kid, like kind of the questions you're asking, like, all right, great. Now I have a diagnosis, like what do I do now? How much do I push the school versus try to adapt to them? You know, what do I do about meds?

That kind of decision making that is very overwhelming.

Claire: Yeah. And I just wanna let listeners know that Sarah's been really a wonderful resource as both like a witchy mom and also an ADHD expert. So she can give you this straight dope, but also like talk to you without making you feel bad or like that you are an asshole for asking these questions.

Sarah Wheeler: That's the goal. You've had a journey and you've done very well. Yeah. And oh God, talking about my kids. I mean, my kids are seven and nine. I think that all parents have to have some humility about only knowing, like parenting so far. [01:04:00] Right. Like I definitely have seen parents who are writers as their kids get older, you know, have to kind of change their philosophy and their practice. I do write about my kids. They like, I mean, in theory they love it. They're always like, put me in your newsletter, or did you talk about me on the podcast? But I'm not kidding myself that they really know what that is.

One time my podcast played in the car, like automatically from my phone and it was a part where I was calling my son a dick and my kid was in the car and I was so freaked out and he was just like. Oh, that was funny.

Quinn: Yeah. Oh God. That's awesome. That's great.

Sarah Wheeler: Yeah, it was. It was. It was an interesting moment.

But, you know, I was talking to Jessica Slice, who is a wonderful author. She wrote this book, Unfit Parent about disabled parenting. And I've interviewed her on the podcast. It's one of my favorite interviews ever. Two of my favorite interviews, 'cause we had her come back, but she was writing on her newsletter on Substack about this question, about writing about your kids and [01:05:00] particularly, you know, for a disabled parent and also when you have neurodivergent kids, you know, I think that she particularly feels like her kids are, you know, vulnerable.

So it's kind of an added anxiety around kind of sharing their stories and are they theirs to share. And she talked about, you know, that a lot of disabled adults have the experience of seeing non-disabled parents write about their disabled kids like they own their stories. And like they understand everything that's going on with them. but you know, for now I'm like, I write from my perspective, this is my thing. And I think it's, I do think it's hard when we say that parents can't talk about real parenting, you know, these are our lives and these are the things that again, we're like experts on and we know a lot about.

And to kind of limit that, it gets into some tricky stuff about sexism in writing and media content. And so, I don't know.

Quinn: I mean, just, I think measurably [01:06:00] we, Claire and I definitely talk shit about our kids offline more, more specifically like sharing social security numbers about them.

I do find that like more naturally and again, you know, probably some of this was directional but it ends up being more about our parenting than about the kids.

And again, you know, it's fun to have a few little zingers in there, and I think people identify with that for sure.

Sarah Wheeler: Wiping your kids butt is funny and I'm sorry.

Quinn: Always, especially when they're 13.

Sarah Wheeler: But I'll take it off if you want me to.

Quinn: Yeah, I think people seem to identify more with the here's how I am feeling about this thing today, this and that, you know?

Claire: Yeah. And I also, I feel like usually when I'm really down about something, which is usually a combination of kid plus parenting, if I express it and I get, yeah but I think in Quinn's terms, like where I'm feeling putting it out there often does so much to address the problem, if not actually getting you help, just articulating it and hearing like at least one person be like, me too, you know?

Sarah Wheeler: Hearing other parents like, and you have to be specific, [01:07:00] right?

Claire: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So anyway, Sarah, I wish we talked more.

Quinn: We kept you the whole time. Thank you so much.

Sarah Wheeler: This is a delight. I would talk for hours more.

Quinn: Thank you Sarah. Really appreciate it.

Claire: Anything else you wanna promote or mention before we let you go?

Sarah Wheeler: Oh, I didn't mention when we were talking about like adult understanding of ADHD. I think my favorite writer is Joan Wilder.

She writes about women with ADHD. She has two books that are available like on Amazon. They're pretty cheap. She just self-published them, but they're really good. And they're just like practical stuff about women and ADHD. But I mean, I think they kind of apply to everyone. But, you know, if my wife had ADHD, I would buy her one of Joan Wilder’s books. Or look through it myself and be like, oh, that's the thing she's doing, right? So I can at least have some empathy.