Maybe Having Another Kid Would Break Us

Claire: [00:00:00] I have a theory that only girl children especially are always extremely advanced and sophisticated. And that can be harmful to the mom especially. 'cause I feel like I also hear about them being, well, both parents, they can be extra smart and mean, you know, like a dinosaur that learned how to open a door.

Quinn: Welcome to Not Right Now, the podcast about parenting through all of this.

Claire: We'll be talking about slash crashing out over topics like

Quinn: Soccer snacks, and sea level rise.

Claire: While the arctic melts. Question mark?

Quinn: Cleaning out uneaten munch boxes again at 4:00 PM or 10:00 PM every day.

Claire: Youth sports and other camp signups you forgot about and won't get into anyways and is there such a thing as unstructured time anymore for anyone? For me?

Quinn: It's not an advice show.

Claire: It's a you're not alone and you're also not crazy for screaming in the shower kind of show. I'm Claire Zulkey from Evil Witches.

Quinn: And I'm Quinn Emmett from [00:01:00] Important, Not Important.

Claire: You can find details on anything we talk about in the show notes or at our website, not right now dot show.

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Claire: And reminder. You can send questions or feedback to questions at not right now dot show.

Quinn: Hey it is Quinn. It's 2026, something of that sort. We have a guest today. Very exciting. Claire's been finding all kinds of fun people for us to talk to. And today's guest is Joy Netanya Thompson. She is a parent. She lives in Los Angeles. She is a fiction writer. She writes a newsletter sometimes called Midweek Joy, which is on Substack.

And she's a pleasure to talk to. And it was really interesting for us because Joy only has one kid. And that is by choice [00:02:00] and it is a fascinating examination of the similarities between our lives and hers and her kids versus ours. And yeah. So I dunno. It's fun. I hope you guys are safe and everything out there. Holy shit.

Claire: I feel like I'm raising my dad, you know? Only my dad is nicer to me than my kids, and sometimes he gives me money, which my kids don't do. Anyway, Joy, how is your 2025 going so far?

Quinn: It's 2026 and not great for anyone.

Claire: Oh my God.

Quinn: I'll answer.

Claire: It's going like that.

Joy Netanya Thompson: Yeah. It's good so far. I'm in LA and so last year it was like crazy at this time. I'm not near the fires, I'm about 20 miles away from Altadena, but it was like, it just felt really apocalyptic a year ago. So I'm just kind of like, wow. At least life is normal right now and yeah, normal here right now, you know, it's like not normal in so many parts of the country but our little neighborhood and house are safe.

Claire: It feels [00:03:00] like it's been so long since those fires and it seems like only by the grace of God could we get through another year without something like that. Has there been anything like showing that something like that could happen again or like they're just, so far things are under control?

Joy Netanya Thompson: With the fires? I mean, it's always a threat in this area and you know, they're definitely doing everything they can. I work for a GIS company, like as an editor, so I'm editing articles all the time about how fire departments and agencies are just doing all these things, but it's just, I don't know, it's inevitable in some ways.

So you just kind of always wait for the next one. I don't live in the hills at all and I never will because I grew up in Southern California and so I'm like, I'd rather be down in the flats and so we're usually safe where we are, but yeah, there hasn't been anything. We've had a really rainy winter, so that might help. But then usually that ends up just creating a bunch of brush to dry out and then create a really bad fire season the next year. So it's I [00:04:00] dunno.

Claire: Yeah. That's part of the reason why Quinn left, I think was like the just insurance going up and just the like nonstop, thrill a minute.

Quinn: I was in Studio City, Laurel Canyon for a long time and it was great, but yeah, not great. And you're right, you're totally right. Everyone's like, great rain. You're like, yeah all that stuff's gonna grow and then it's gonna not rain and then it'll burn. So anyways.

Claire: So we, I was reminding Quinn about our impetus to talk. It's been a little bit since we first reached out. Remind me, and I said it's pretty simple. It's just the topic of how many kids you have or don't have and sort of the baggage and choices that comes around that. But I think we could also talk about siblings as we are young and as we are older. But remind me how old your daughter is now.

Joy Netanya Thompson: Yeah, I have one daughter and her name is Zadie and she just turned 10 on the 4th of January. So yeah, freshly minted double digits.

Claire: And how did it go? How did her birthday go? I think we talked a little bit about having a kid whose birthday is around the holiday. Both of you guys have kids whose birthdays are around the holidays and I'm [00:05:00] curious to know how you managed to separate that amount of joy, specialness, presents, you know, 'cause I know my husband.

Quinn: We don’t do joy. We gave up on that.

Claire: Yeah. How do you guys, do make that happen when you have a kid who, you know, when you may have Christmas or whatever, Hanukkah coming up right after that? How do you guys make room for all of it?

Joy Netanya Thompson: Yeah. When's your kid's birthday Quinn?

Quinn: I was just thinking, it's interesting it's a couple weeks before Christmas, but we're usually like, okay, right. Holiday season. Also, we gotta make sure to fit in his birthday where they're kind of in a row. One of my other kids is a couple weeks before that and me and Thanksgiving and all that stuff.

But yours is interesting to me because, do you ever get through the holidays and then go, oh fuck right, we gotta do the birthday. You think you're done and then you’ve got a birthday?

Joy Netanya Thompson: Yeah, it's horrible. It's so horrible and I feel bad saying that, you know, but like even my husband and I were like pretty, like we were trying to have a baby when we got pregnant. And I wish that we would've just skipped that month and been like, [00:06:00] let's try next month, because then we won't have a Christmas or January baby.

And I think we did it for Christmas. I was like, okay, this won't land on Christmas, so we're good. But I wasn't thinking about how shitty it is to have a kid who's, yeah, it's, so this year her birthday landed on the day before school went back. So the very last day of winter break and you know, she's a total extrovert.

She's a party girl, she has incredibly expensive taste. And she just wanted a party. And last year we did this like whole Willy Wonka themed party, which I have to say I was very proud of. And it was amazing. And I said, we're not doing that again. We're not doing a party next year. And then here I am, we did a party again.

So my plan is we start talking about it in November and I'm like, we need to decide on a theme and we need to get the ball rolling because once the holidays start, like it's gonna be over. So we decided on a theme and I kind of ordered you know, her theme was Paris this year. And so I got this like cool banner from [00:07:00] Etsy that looks like a cafe and it said Zadie’s Cafe or whatever.

So I ordered that early, you know, like stuff that I needed to order early and then I just kind of put it out of my mind. I sent the invitations and then I put it outta my mind. Because I was like, oh, we'll have, you know, a few days off to get all the other stuff and figure everything out, and then it's like New Year's Day and you know, you just wanna be done. Like New Year's Day, we always take down our decorations and that's like the best part of Christmas to me is taking down the decorations and being like, okay, we're restored to like our normal state. And to do that and then be like, shit. I have to do all this stuff now. So, yeah it's kind of like running a marathon and then being asked to like choreograph a three minute original dance at the end. You're just like, I'm dried out. I don't have anything left. But we did it.

Claire: So how do you do presents though for that? Do you just buy a big pile of presents and then you break off a chunk for the birthday? Or do you kind of treat them as totally different things and you know, you do Christmas and then you're like, now it's birthday time.

Joy Netanya Thompson: [00:08:00] Yeah. Yeah, I kind of did go crazy with buying presents this year. I think I just like kind of start to get into this weird, like trance and I just keep buying because you just, at first I'm like, she doesn't want anything. She doesn't need anything. And then I start looking at all the gift guides and then I'm like, oh my God, she would love this.

She'd love this. And I'm Jewish. And so we also do Hanukkah, and sometimes we do presents for Hanukkah and sometimes we don't. And this year I just had so many gifts that I was like we're doing presents for Hanukkah this year, and just once in a while, and it was, you know, it's like stocking stuffer stuff where it's like, there's too much stuff to even put in her stocking.

So like that kind of thing. Or things that I wasn't quite sure if she'd like, I gave her, you know, for Hanukkah it felt like low stakes.

Claire: Yeah.

Joy Netanya Thompson: But yeah, I just kind of saved stuff for her birthday and I even I gave her the things that I thought would keep her occupied for Christmas, because I was like, okay, we have all this time.

So this, like dollhouse that she had to build herself so, you know, And then she really wanted like a desk and a chair for her room, so we got that for her birthday [00:09:00] too. But then of course she needs something to open from us.

Claire: Sure. That's funny. This year, I mean for those who have not tuned in to the last episode, we had a medical emergency in my family and we had to postpone the recording of this episode. And so, the good side of it in some ways was like, well I get to be shittier at buying stuff for people than normal.

I have an excuse. But you know, my husband to his credit, did an amazing job picking up all the pieces and being like, he's just been such a trooper with the kids. I mean, the bar is very low, but things like helping my dad put up the Christmas tree. He's going over there today to help my mom help put up a, like a, put together a toilet seat for my mom.

So, I was like, I can't completely ignore it. And he had no ideas for me 'cause he was so spent. So I got him literally undershirts, underwear, socks, and tea, but he was so excited. He loved it, and I made a crossword puzzle of like clues that were all about him and he had a great time.

So, you know, I feel like men can be easy to [00:10:00] shop for. Quinn. Can you confirm or deny?

Quinn: Yeah. I think with a, with a modicum of self-awareness, men can admit that they're easy to shop for, which is to say especially, I literally was showing my kids who are not even the ones to think about yet, though, I guess they are. That book Nobody Wants Your Shit.

It's like decluttering before you die. And my daughter was like, I'm 10, and I was like, that's great, but your room is constantly full of stuff. So get ahead of it, you know, let's fucking think about it. Versus I don't want anything. I don't want anything. I really don't. And I know I'm surrounded by toys, but that's only because I have very little joy otherwise, and I'm not allowed to have these at home.

Claire: How do you and Dana go about the gift philosophy with the kids who are closer to the holidays? I know you try to give them fewer things.

Quinn: We've been trying to do fewer things and more like experiences, even if it's like a coupon book for you know, Nintendo Switch time or baking with grandma or I dunno. what would they want to do that I don't mind doing or would actually enjoy doing as well? So we gave my 10-year-old like, Hey, here's the, here's a little card and I print off Canva.

We'll go to [00:11:00] a baseball game of your choosing. Great. He was so excited.

Joy Netanya Thompson: Here's my question about coupon books though. Do they actually use them?

Quinn: They do. Great question.

Joy Netanya Thompson: It's a good idea, but I'm, yeah. Do they actually use them?

Quinn: It's gotta be usable stuff. And I think to probably to an age, I have a 13-year-old I would be curious what, if any, coupons would be something he was interested in using.

We're kind of crazy about screen time, so maybe more of that like for him to call his girlfriend or, you know, talk to his friends about butts. But yeah, or just, you know, a day without me commenting on what they're doing.

Claire: Let him do you know, what is it? Grocery store. What is that show where you can go shopping as much as you want at the grocery store?

Quinn: Is it like Sweep, Grocery Store Sweep?

Joy Netanya Thompson: Supermarket Sweep.

Claire: Supermarket Sweep. But at 7/11 for seven minutes, you can shop for as much as you want at 7/11.

Quinn: I truly think if it were coupons where like I left them alone, they would use them and run out of them quickly. I texted Claire last night, like 8[00:12:00] 30. We're always been crazy about putting our kids to bed early, but like he's 13 and his body's changing. He has got things to do and we don't even have that much homework.

But we've always been like, here's the deal. We get into bed earlier than everybody else. You can read as long as you want, as long as you stay in bed. I don't care if it's five hours or 20 minutes, like your call just don't involve me after we're done. Don't get outta bed. And last night I texted her, it was like 8:30 my time and I was like, Hey bud, you gotta go to bed.

He goes, I'm not really interested in going to bed yet. I was like, I don't care. I don't care. Like how do you want me to respond to like go to fuck the bed that feels like one of those moments where he'd be like, I have a coupon where you can't talk to me for the rest of the night and probably worth its weight in gold.

Claire: That's so funny to me. But of course it's the kind of thing where when someone else says something funny, it's funny at the time, but to you, you're like, I fucking hate you. I was telling Quinn how, my husband and I were saying how our 10-year-old son is being such a jerk lately and like very contrary to everything.

And my husband was so over it and they were in Arizona and Flagstaff. [00:13:00] And at night my husband looked up in the sky and said, wow, there's so many stars out tonight. Look at all the stars. And my son looked up and said, I can only see five stars and like husband was so mad.

Quinn: It really is those little ones where you're just like, fuck you man.

Claire: Yeah. Oh yeah. And then Steve said they walked by a restaurant, and Steve said, Ooh, that food smells good. And James said, I think it smells weird. So, anyway. For some reason they're better. These stories are better, like when you tell them compared to like when you experienced them.

So, anyway, Joy, I love the topic of siblings 'cause I have always, I think every parent is always wondering whether they had the right amount of kids, whether they had the right combination of kids, things like that. Talk a little bit about the writing you've done, the thinking you've done about the topic of only children and sort of you know, where you come from with that. And you know, the kinds of things you've been asked, the kinds of thoughts you have, just go off.

Joy Netanya Thompson: Yeah. Okay. Well, starting [00:14:00] out, I never thought I would have an only child, like ever. It didn't even cross my mind. It just was not an option to me. And I grew up in the suburbs where I don't think I knew a single only child all of growing up. At least that I knew of. So it just was like a foreign or like something that you see in the movies, you know, And I have two older sisters and my mom had the three of us within three and a half years, so we are really close in age. So Quinn, when you talk about your kids really close in age, I'm like, yeah. Like the highs are very high and the lows are very low. That's what I always say. Especially when you're all the same gender.

Quinn: That'll do it. My brother's wife has three sisters. There's four of them, same thing, like four kids, four girls in five years. And her dad was an emergency room doctor and she frequently describes her dad pulling in the driveway and just refusing to come inside. 'cause it was like four girls between 13 and 17. And he was like, why would I ever involve myself in that? It's so dark.

Joy Netanya Thompson: Yeah, it's seriously wild. And I love sisterhood, like I love having sisters and we were each [00:15:00] other's like ride or die. Even my oldest sister and I get along really well, always have. And she was kinda like second mom to me. And we kind of grew up in like a chaotic childhood. My dad wasn't really around, and so we kind of really had to be there for each other.

But my middle sister, Rachel, she would beat me up. We were just always adversaries, but we still like, you know, like we were like integral to each other and we still are. Yeah. So we're really close. And then my mom got remarried when I was 12 and my stepdad brought two little brothers into my life.

And so they've been around, like they started dating when my brothers were like two and six, so they're my brothers. So then there's five of us siblings if all of us were home, like if they weren't at their mom's. So it's, so I kind of grew up in a big family. Like I have those experiences and you know, even now, if we go on vacation together with just my parents, my siblings and our partners and our kids that's like 20 people.

It's just, it's a lot of [00:16:00] people. And I always thought of an only child family as that's probably really sad. That's probably really quiet. Ooh, you know, how sad for them. But then I had a baby and it sucked. And like my pregnancy was okay, and like I was living in Colorado at the time and in this like really crunchy environment, so I was like trying to have the baby at a birth center.

I did all my prenatal care at a birth center. I took all the classes. I did all the stuff that you're supposed to do. I watched the documentary, I did the whole thing, and you know, of course I ended up with a 40 hour labor and emergency C-section. So it's like my sisters and I call it the Moyle Special, Moyle is my maiden name, because all of us ended up with really long labors and emergency C-sections.

So I don't know. It's the Moyle Curse. But anyway, I had that and it was just terrible and it kind of started my journey into motherhood, like on a really tough foot. And again, we were living in Colorado away from all of my family and close friends. And [00:17:00] so my husband was home for two weeks and then he went back to work and then I was like, alone with this baby.

I had never spent time with babies. I had never changed a diaper before my daughter. So I was just like, I don't know what to do. It felt terrifying at the time. I had postpartum depression. Didn't know it. I just thought this is what it is now to be a mom. So it was like a really rough first couple years, we did move back to LA and that helped.

And I eventually got on antidepressants. That helped a lot. I eventually went back to work, that helped. But, you know, it was like I was just getting my head above water when Zadie was turning two, that's when I got on antidepressants. And so it was like, okay, this is when people have another baby.

Usually like this two or three year mark. And I'm like, I literally cannot even imagine putting myself through that again. You know, it felt like this huge gamble. Okay, maybe I have the resources now. Maybe it would be different. Maybe I could schedule a C-section. 'cause I just know that it's not gonna happen for me and that would be a better recovery, [00:18:00] you know, all these things.

But it was like, and maybe not, maybe I'll be just as depressed for two years, but I'll also have a toddler. Maybe my marriage won't sustain this. 'cause it already feels kind of shaky. Like it was just, it just felt like we can't do this. And then I'd say when Zadie was four, it was kind of like, maybe, like we were still talking about it, it was still on the table and then the pandemic happened.

You know, and I guess some people did take the pandemic as a sign to like, Hey, this is as good a time as any to have another baby. But that was like, not the way we took it at all.

Claire: No.

Joy Netanya Thompson: And my husband works in, like he's a project manager in construction, so construction did not shut down for a single fucking day in the pandemic.

So it was like I was just home alone again with my child. And so, yeah, it was like, this is yeah, we don't really have a lot of parent help either, so that's a big part of it. Yeah. So anyway, around that time, and we even started talking to a foster agency 'cause we're like, maybe we could do foster to adopt and had an [00:19:00] interview with them and then we're like, what are we doing?

This would break us. Like having another kid would literally break us. We can't do it. And that was so hard to like really admit, you know, and just admit it and be like we can't do it. And if that means that we're like weaker than our friends or most of society who can manage to have multiple kids, you know, I had to like work through all those feelings of like inferiority and failure and shame and all this stuff.

And I would say probably two or three years ago is when I think all three of us started to be like, this is good. Like the three of us. This is what it's meant to be. This feels really good. This is who we are as a family. But it, you know, that was when she was seven. It took a long time to get there.

Claire: Yeah, that is, I mean, that makes a lot of sense. And first of all, what you might call inferiority, I might call wisdom and self-awareness. Because, you know, I mean, that thing, people talk about having another kid it's just like putting another quarter in the vending machine, [00:20:00] 'cause I had, I was induced both times with hypertension.

And so I, after the second one I was like, okay, I'm not good at this. I fumble the ball at the one yard line each time and it's not gonna get easier the older I get. So that certainly played, but I would hear all the time, are you gonna go for the girl? And I would like, and it would really pain me 'cause I mean, we could talk more about this later, the fact that you're one of three sisters, you know, resonates with me. 'cause sisterhood has always eluded me, in any like literal, every capacity that you could imagine. But I'd be like, well first of all, that's how you end up with like twin boys.

After you have two boys, you know? But also I can't do this. And my second kid was, I enjoyed him more as a baby, but as an older kid he was a lot more difficult. And I was like, what if you have a kid who requires even more care? Now, Quinn, I know that you guys didn't set out to have three kids necessarily, you know, one rolled out, you know, as a special bonus.

But did you guys, I'm just curious with three kids and you're not all of one sex. Do you still hear, does anyone ever say, do you wanna go for [00:21:00] another or does everyone see you and be like, that's enough. We would never suggest these people have more.

Quinn: All the above. I mean, I spent most of the time Joy was talking, hoping she would say I'm in the market for another one so I could send one to her. Which is most days, these days, they're great. However yeah, so I think, well, I don't think most people say that mostly because, you know, we are usually, not that anyone cares, but like we've been pretty honest with our, like we got hitched and I was six years younger than my wife, and they were like, yeah, sorry, you're having trouble. Let's see what the story is. And we went to do, you know, starter IVF basically, like a Clomid shot and good luck. And they were like, well, that's not gonna work. And then we, the short answer is we never figured out really why we had so many issues.

It wasn't specifically my junk, it wasn't hers after they combined, you read into that however you want. It was a shit show. It went downhill. You know, I feel like I got a dissertation in at least, you know, 2012 era [00:22:00] IVF. But eventually, finally made one with our first one, like last embryo available.

And same thing, like pregnancy was fine besides, you know, the IVF stuff where you just gotta be on our back for a couple weeks to start with. And we had lost a few along the way before that too. And then we had him and it was so traumatic for everyone involved for a thousand reasons. And then I remember going, you have to go see your IVF doctor shortly after.

And I don't recall why. But I remember him and he's great. We owe him everything in the world, but he was like, if you're gonna do another one, you should try now. And we were like, there's a baby in the car seat behind us. We can't have a baby. We have a baby. And he was like, yeah, but look at the math bud, it basically didn't work out the first time. Like despite the fact that there's a baby here and we did want them to have a sibling. We both have siblings for better or worse, mine are more spread out. Hers are less so, she's got one, I've got [00:23:00] three. And we were like, okay, fuck it.

Sure, why not try it? And it took a little while and we got it to work. And then as Claire said, the third one was our love child. Which sure, why not? I grew up, or I was the second oldest of 32 cousins. I'm the second oldest in my family, grew up, love babies, taught kids, coached kids, all that stuff.

I would've had 12 or so. I mean, keep that in perspective. I just told you I would FedEx you one of my children. So, we met, got engaged, got married, was told we couldn't have a baby, and then sort of by science failed and then made some. And so we never really had the chance to have the conversation with like, how many kids do you think we should have or should we do more?

It was just like, if you're gonna do it, do it because it's probably not gonna work. And then we had three kids in, you know, three and a half years. And same thing, you're in it. There's a lot of postpartum depression, there's a lot of sleep, there's a lot of, I don't know, any marriage or partnership or anything that could survive this chaos.

And we're super privileged to have help. Not a ton, but we had help. Dana does always joke, we do have one in a freezer somewhere, I will [00:24:00] say. And we've often thought about just like anonymously sending it to a friend or something.

Claire: Do you know what it is? If it's a girl or a boy?

Quinn: She thinks she knows. I don’t recall, every year when I get the bill for the freezer storage. It doesn't say, but I do at least, you know, so that would've been from probably 20, probably like 2013, 14. I mean, it's frozen, so it's not like aging. If we chose to freeze it. It must have passed most of the tests then though they're much better and more specific now. And it's much easier on the embryo to take the tests now.

So the point is I don't know, other than it seems to, you know, possibly have a chance, but I dunno. She's like, you can do whatever you want with it. She's like, I'm not carrying that fucking thing. She's gonna be 50 next year. She's like, no, thank you. She's like, I love our kids, but oh my God. So that's kind of our conversation. I dunno it, we're lucky to have what we have, but, oh my God.

Claire: But no one's ever [00:25:00] given you any kind of suggestion that you should have more kids.

Quinn: Not after experience my kids. No, do you get the what about a girl?

Claire: Yeah. Even now from one of my cousins, and I'm like, first of all, Steve's had a vasectomy and I was asking him to have the vasectomy while I was pregnant with my second kid. 'cause that's how much I hated being pregnant the second time. So I knew we would have two no matter what.

And I guess I really thought I was having a girl the second time because I have a brother and I felt so different. Like mainly shitty with my second pregnancy compared to pretty good with my first one that I felt pretty sure that I was gonna have a girl. And then the first one was a surprise you know, the gender reveal, whatever you wanna call it.

And the second one I did wanna find out 'cause I just wanted to find out and I like had to get over myself for a while to know this is it, that this is only gonna be two boys. And there are a lot of great things about having two of the same as, you know, with sisters, hand me downs. And I think, and this is not across the board, but I do think when it's one of each, they don't have always the same [00:26:00] likelihood of having the same interests necessarily.

And that's, again, having two of the same is not a guarantee of that. So they do things that are great in terms of playing sports together, but they have very different personalities and anyway.

Quinn: So Claire and I agree. And I fully both embody and agree that boys are dumb. We're so dumb. You can say that like we're simple to get gifts for, we're dumb. And you were texting me about that last night about how, I don't remember your exact wording, but basically not having a girl means the boy dumbness is less diluted in your family than it may be in mine, which depends on the day.

Claire: Yeah, I don't know if that's accurate. That's the thing Joy is that I have this, I have a lot of big theories. I know they're all probably wrong and maybe even offensive, but I have a theory that only girl children especially are always extremely advanced and sophisticated. And that can be harmful to the mom especially, 'cause I feel like I also hear about them being, well, not both parents, they can be extra smart and mean, you know, like a dinosaur that [00:27:00] learned how to open a door. But I feel like it's always these only children girls who are like rolling sushi for fun, you know? Or they're like gonna bake cookies with no oversight and things like that where I'm like, my kids' idea of fun is never anything remotely helpful to me whatsoever. You know, nothing that is promising for their future.

Quinn: Short term or long term. It's detracting.

Claire: Yeah, like downstairs right now. I was stepping over cushions. I mean, again, here's both sides of it. On the one hand, they were entertaining themselves. On the other hand, they got Nerf guns for Christmas. We put it off for a long time. You can't fight city hall. And I was like stepping over furniture on the floor because they were having a Nerf gun fight down there, which is again, like you're glad you're having a good time.

Probably will end in tears at some point. Like glorifying gun violence, making a mess for me. You know, we're all gonna have to clean this up. So, you know, depends on what your, pick your poison, you know. But for me, my husband is an only child and I think [00:28:00] that maybe like our first son was, I had a hard time as well.

The adjustment was not easy. Same as you. I didn't have a lot of experience around little kids. I kind of had a, I don't know how to explain it. I think I thought that I could just do it myself, not myself, but I didn't need help because I had the resources and I had the, I don't know what in retrospect, I would've asked for more help than I had.

But in retrospect, our son was a pretty good kid. But I think my only child husband, the way he described his upbringing and the way he kind of ran his parents basically, and like they had this dynamic where he was the center of the universe, basically made me think, I don't want our kid to necessarily have that.

That's not how all only children are. That was just his experience. But it has been fascinating to watch him with my kids. 'cause at least with my brother. I knew, and I can talk about my brothers, and my relationship. I know what it's like to love someone and hate them at the same time, like in a sibling way.

And I bet you guys like have experienced that with [00:29:00] your siblings too, where you're like, well, I didn't ask you to be here. You know? But also since you're here I feel very strongly that I must protect you against a lot of things.

Quinn: I don’t feel that way about any of mine, but I'm so confident they feel that way about me.

Claire: Where are you again, in the writing order of your siblings?

Quinn: So my older brother's four and a half years older than I am. And I think my mom had a pretty gnarly atopic pregnancy in between us and miscarriage. And then me and then younger brothers, 23 months younger than I am, and then to the relief of everyone everywhere. They had a girl four years after that. They went for the girl and truly against all odds, but thank God they got one. 'cause the three of us are such idiots.

Claire: Yeah I mean, Steve, my husband would watch the boys like hate each other and love each other within the span of seconds. And he just could not understand this dynamic. Whereas at least I was like I understand like it's a roommate you didn't pick. And you know, there's ups and downs to it. So Joy, did you, do your sisters or anyone in your family, do they provide any [00:30:00] pressure that you might feel about, you know, having had, about having more than one kid? Or does that not come from them at all?

Joy Netanya Thompson: I'd say when Zadie was little, like my mom would sometimes be like, oh, are you gonna have another one? But again, there's five of us kids, so we're producing enough grandkids for them to, you know, be entertained. Yeah. And no, I mean, my sisters and I are really close and we're all incredibly honest about motherhood.

And how much it sucks a lot of the time. And so they were completely supportive. My one sister also only has an only daughter who's a year older than mine. And then, yeah, and then my sister, who's on the east coast has two boys and then she has a girl. And she was actually pregnant with her daughter when she came out to help me for three days in that first week when my husband went back to work.

And it was amazing just to have my sister there for a little bit. And she was pregnant and she was like, really just torn about it. I'd say it, it was a surprise. And you know, they had all those conversations and questions, are you gonna go for the girl? [00:31:00] 'cause they had two boys and you know, she was just really overwhelmed.

She was a physician's assistant. She like is very career driven. You know, their boys were really small. I think she'd say even now, like that her daughter is nine, like that almost broke them to have the third. Obviously she's incredibly grateful for her daughter's life and all of that. And you know, she's irreplaceable and everybody loves her, so my sister's like completely understand, thankfully. And you know, we're all cut from the same cloth in some ways. Yeah, like we all need sleep. Like we all do horribly on like little sleep, which is a big part of being a parent in the early years, you know, all those things.

But I will say like my sister that has the two boys, she kind of says the same thing that you guys do, that boys are so simple. Like she's just like, it's so easy with them. Like of course they are crazy and they do crazy things, but she's like, compared to having a daughter, it's so easy. And I'm like, yeah, I could see that because like my daughter, I mean you said like only children who are girls are geniuses, obviously[00:32:00] I think my daughter's brilliant. You know, I don't know if her grades show that, but I think she's amazing. But yeah, it's complicated. Like I think that the mother-daughter relationship is always gonna be complex no matter what. Even if you have an incredibly close relationship, which we do.

I mean, she's only 10. Hopefully that continues. But yeah, it's a lot and I'm glad that I don't have to split that attention right now with another kid, to be honest, like that part is good because it's hard. Like just parenting is so hard. And you know, and even my husband and I both have a ton of, not a ton, but we have serious hobbies.

Like I am a fiction writer and that takes up time, you know, he's a mountain biker and goes on road rides and stuff that like, takes hours and hours. And so like those types of things, like we can hold onto that more as parents because we have one child. It's not as big of a deal to just tell your spouse like, Hey, I'm gonna go do this. I'm gonna be gone for half a day or even a full day and they have one kid to deal with versus two or three or four.

Claire: I have a friend who said she has three kids and she said two is not enough and three [00:33:00] is too many. And I thought that was, 'cause I, again, I never wished we had a third kid, and I think with respect, I feel like everyone I know who has three kids, they lost their mind like after the third kid.

And then some people were like, let's just go deeper and go for one more. 'cause what's the point? We already lost everything. So let's just dig deeper. But yeah it is really interesting 'cause, my brother and I, we were playmates when we were little and then we really had a combative hard relationship for a long time.

And I think that my mom being sick kind of brought some of that stuff back up to the surface. And I had a friend in college who was really close with her brothers, they would go party together, go to the movies together. And I would tell her, I was like, you know, that's pretty unusual, right? To be friends with your siblings. And I think now she's married to someone and I think she sees a little bit more that is uncommon. But my son, my older son, his little brother has ADHD, he's got more of a, like an explosive personality. And I remember him once [00:34:00] saying that he disagreed with some of our parenting choices with his little brother.

And he basically, I think was like, I think you should punish him more and, you know, go off on him more. And I was like, well, I see that, you know, but you have to understand that doesn't work. You know, we can't, as much as I would love to spank this kid, and believe me, hardly a week goes by where I don't have the hankering for a spankering.

And it doesn't, it's not gonna get you anywhere. And I told him, I was like, I know what it's like to have a brother who sucks all the air out of the room and it's hard. And I said, I see you and I hope that, you know, I see you and you get yours, basically. Like you get to stay up late.

We have these talks. But on the other hand, I think that it's helped him. I think he'll be a cooler human in the future. I think he'll be a really good roommate someday. I know that sounds crazy, but he knows what it's like to live with someone crazy, for instance. And to roll with things when things get spicy, it certainly goes both ways. Quinn, did you fight a lot with your siblings, like physical fight or have like big emotional battles with them that [00:35:00] formulated you in any particular way?

Quinn: I don't know. I mean, I'm sure we did a lot. It became a little weirder when I was like 11 and a half, 12. 'cause all of a sudden I was six feet tall. Truly like all of a sudden. So it was as big as my brother, even though he was four and a half years older than me.

And I was in the same sports. Like it was all, it was a little strange. I mean, he was bigger and stronger, you know, he could and definitely did just beat the shit outta me and 1000% deserved. I think I've told the story, Claire, and I'll find the picture of it somewhere. How, keep in mind again, like my mom had this, like horrific miscarriage in between us.

So I was like the miracle baby and she kept a baby book. I think Claire, if I told you this one, she, you know, kept like a little journal, baby book like moms used to do when they were expected to stay home and just keep a baby book. And she only got, it was like, we're so lucky. This is so great, this and this.

And then it's like you're watching like, you know, Shackleton in Antarctica, there's like skipped pages and like stains and things like that. And then there's just one entry, 18 months old that says Quinn [00:36:00] has become a capital T , Terror. And then there's never another entry, Claire. We found it. My siblings were like, check. Yeah, a hundred percent. And I'm like, oh, that adds up. Yeah, that really adds up. So try to keep that in mind when I'm parenting my children, but also in constantly saying sorry and thank you to her. She's the greatest. Because I'm sure we were impossible.

Again, my sister is, it's ridiculous how much better of a person and a human and a sibling and a child that she is and continues to be. So I'm sure that was a relief for them. But at the same time, like still had to get us out of there. You know? It's like Jesus, my God.

Claire: One thing that's crazy about my husband's family is that his dad was married before his mom and they got divorced and he kind of surrendered custody in relation to his two older daughters. So my husband actually has two half sisters out there that he never knew. And so he had this very only child life but technically had two sisters.

And he, one time his dad, it was right before our wedding and my mom was showing his dad around the golf club [00:37:00] where our wedding reception would be very proudly. And his dad looked out the window and said, thoughtfully, I'm really glad I don't have daughters, which is like a really fucked up thing to say in general. And also he did have two daughters as well.

Quinn: That's fascinating. There's so many ways to dig into that one.

Claire: Yeah, a hundred percent. And yes there's so many different things. One thing my mom said about siblings that is true, but also not helpful in any way, is that she told me once that whatever you have, 'cause I was pregnant with my second kid and I remember at the time, if it was pregnancy hormones or maybe if he was just at a good phase. But I remember thinking there's no way I could like my second kid as much as I like my first kid. I know that's a messed up thing to think.

Quinn: And it was true.

Claire: You know what's funny? I enjoyed James as a baby so much more because I was a mom that time, you know? And so we had a lot more, he was a really fun baby, but then he, something happened. She said, whatever you do, they're gonna be different. And that was true. I mean, and they're not like so [00:38:00] crazy different, but they have extremely different personalities. So if Zadie is amazing and awesome then her brother or sister would be probably a basic bitch flop and you know, pale in comparison.

So, you know, you did, you knew what was right. I'm glad that she has a lot of cousins because I think cousins are better than siblings because you get the fun without the bullshit.

Quinn: Do they see each other often, the cousins?

Joy Netanya Thompson: Well, one of my sisters lives in Philly, and so those three kids, like we see them once a year, which is horrible. And they were supposed to appear this Christmas and then they got the flu. And so we didn't get to see them. It was so sad. But my other sister lives about an hour from me.

She lives over in Seal Beach and she's the one with the only daughter and she's one year older than Sadie. And so when she had Naomi and then was looking like she wasn't gonna have another either, it helped me make my decision and be like, okay, they too are going to be sister cousins. And we call them sister cousins and you know, we saw each other a lot more maybe when they were younger.

Now that they're both like pre-teens, it's you know, not [00:39:00] as easy. But they have that bond where it's especially we're always like, you guys are gonna be able to bond over how crazy your moms are. Like my sister and I are crazy in some of the same ways, like neurotic in some of the same ways.

And that's a big part of having a sibling, at least for me, is being able to talk shit about your parents, you know, and just be like, can you believe that? Or whatever. And just like to have someone who like witnessed your life from the beginning is just so powerful. And so for her to have Naomi as that, and then my best friend actually recently moved to my town and she has three daughters and they're like cousins to my daughter.

And so like she has those people, you know, and that best friend I've known since I was a baby. So she's like a sister. She's like that person that has known me through every single iteration of myself, who knows my family deeply. So even if it's not a like blood sibling, I think you can have those types of like really deep relationships that can kind of do the same thing. It's not exactly the same, but you know.

Quinn: Sometimes a lot better, to be totally honest.

Claire: Yes, since we were gonna [00:40:00] speak, I'm in this new phase of life with my parents where I'm kind of caretaking for them and I guess it's not a coincidence, but all of a sudden many of my friends are in the exact same place. I have literally a handful of people who I've been checking in on it 'cause their parents are really newly in the hospital or out of the hospital or about to have surgery or just had surgery.

And it is such a cliche, but so many families. There is like one functional sibling and then one fuck around, fuck off, selfish sibling maybe more. And my brother's not selfish or fuck around. But we have different caretaking personalities. I live closer by, I have a car. He doesn't, I don't think he quite understands, like when my mom was in the hospital, we had an argument because I asked him if he was gonna come take a shift with her. And he said, she has round the clock care 'cause she's in the hospital. And I said, well, the nurses are not sitting there watching her the whole time while she's trying to pull her IVs out, you know, to get up to use the bathroom.

And she hasn't walked in five days. And we had, you [00:41:00] know, a tense moment. And so I have a friend who is an only child and her mom's in the hospital. But anyway, all it is to say is that sometimes I imagine being an only child means there's less bullshit to deal with.

I can't tell if it's like a win to just do it on your own, you know, in executive decisions versus putting up with some useless sibling or selfish sibling or, you know, completely different perspective sibling. So yeah.

Joy Netanya Thompson: And you might have if you're an only, maybe you've built that support system because you need it, you know, it's like maybe by that time you have the best friend who's gonna do that with you or whatever. I was gonna say, when that happened to your mom, I like, something really similar happened to my dad right at the beginning of COVID where like he already had so many health issues, was like a non-compliant diabetic. Had just recently had his second leg amputated, was still living alone, could barely take care of himself. It was so hard, had mental issues, and we didn't hear from him for a week. And so my sister and I were like, what's going on?

This is so unusual for him to not pick up his [00:42:00] phone. He lived in the valley like an hour from each of us and this was like deep COVID. We weren't even wearing masks yet. Like we were wearing cloth masks. And I remember we're like, okay, let's go out there and just see, and this is how bad my dad was, was that he left his apartment door unlocked all the time in case he fell and needed the paramedics to come in.

That's the situation he was already in. So we like went out there together and I remember it was like at night and my sister had a mask, like one of an actual surgical mask that no one was wearing yet. And she's like, okay, here in case, you know, and we didn't even put them on, but you know, we went in there and my dad was in horrible shape and we had to call an ambulance.

And that was actually the last time I saw him in real life, which is so sad. But I'm so grateful that my sister was there, you know, and I was thinking about you and having to discover your mom alone and it's just so hard, but it's not guaranteed that you're gonna have a sibling that's gonna do stuff like that with you. I [00:43:00] lucked out and, you know, during the five years that my dad was having a hard time, we just were able to take turns and do a lot together.

Claire: The non-compliance is, it's just like breathtaking how folks of a certain generation are just like, willing to take us all down with them by not making it easy on us to take care of them.

Quinn: In so many ways.

Claire: Does your husband have siblings?

Joy Netanya Thompson: Yes. He has a sister three years older than him. And she lives kind of nearby, like 20 minutes away. But you know, she's a good example of they get along fine and they got along fine growing up and we see each other on holidays and she has two kids around Zadie's age. but we don't like hang out, you know, I wouldn't say that they're close.

And so that also kind of helped me make my decision. 'cause it's just not a guarantee. And they were a close family. Like they did a lot of stuff together growing up and you know, his parents are still together and yeah, I don't know. And she's a wonderful person, but just.

Claire: I feel like a lot of it is where we live. I don't live in Utah. I'm not a Mormon, but like where I live, [00:44:00] it is like when someone has three or more kids, three is the limit, I'd say. But when someone has more than three kids, it's kind of like shocking.

There's a couple of families at our school who have four or five kids and you're like, whoa. You know? Especially if they both work. and one of my best friends growing up was an only child, so it wasn't unusual, but I feel like it's not as commented upon, but also I'm not a mom with an only child.

Do you sense that, do you feel like people have a different attitude towards it now than they did when we were younger? Or do you feel like you still get a lot of comments from the peanut gallery about choosing to just have one?

Joy Netanya Thompson: I think it depends on where you live. Like when Zadie was a toddler, we lived in Highland Park in LA and everyone in the playgroup had only children except for one lady. So, and most of us have stayed with only one child. And that was common because they were all, you know, working and creative professions.

They were all older. I was the youngest by far, and I was 31, like youngest by far in that playgroup. So that was just a lot more common out there. And now I live in a suburb where, you know, I don't know, a single family with an [00:45:00] only child. And we're kind of an anomaly but people don't ask because it's rude.

So like I had a friend, I had one friend like we were going to a church for a while and we were hanging out like kind of regularly for a year. And then I remember we were at a park near my house and we were watching our kids play and she asked in this way that I could tell she was nervous to ask.

And that she'd been wondering for a long time and she was like, why don't you have any more? Can you not, you know? Because I think she had two boys and she really wanted to have another and she was struggling. So I think she was just like wondering. 'cause that's why I think sometimes people don't ask because they don't know if it's like a fertility issue.

Like maybe we've wanted another one and we never could. Or maybe we had a child who died. Nobody really knows. I think there's like mystery around it sometimes. Usually people ask me once I've known them for a year or two, and it's usually like curiosity less than judgment. You know, like they'll just be like, oh, did you always know you wanted an only, or, you know, stuff like that.

But it's more like when you, like I feel the judgment [00:46:00] from people I don't know when they're, you know. Not talking to me. I'll say actually like a couple episodes ago on this podcast, the guest said something about oh, I would never take like parenting advice from someone with an only child.

I was like, well, and that's common. You hear that a lot. And if I had multiple kids, I'd probably feel the exact same way. I'd probably feel like you're only doing half of my job. You have no idea what it's like. Like my sister with three kids says one is one, two is 10 and three is a million.

'Cause it's just exponential, you know? And so I'm like, I get it, but also like it feels really invalidating, obviously.

Claire: Oh man. Yeah. that's a good thing that you don't even think of. And I immediately jumped to like it's not like we're doing more. But see, there's no contest, like it's all bullshit. It's not like you are, you know, raising fewer, like you have less going on.

Like you just have the gas expands to meet the amount of the, what is it? Container?

Quinn: Sure. Keep going.

Joy Netanya Thompson: What about a kid with special needs? You know, if you have a family with kids [00:47:00] with special needs, they're like, I'm not gonna take advice from someone with kids who don't have special needs, you can do this forever.

Quinn: Also like your, I mean, you have a very good friend who's got one kid and he is a few years older than yours, and I remember during COVID he was like I am so, he's very close with our kids and our family. He's like, I'm so thankful your kids have each other to keep each other busy.

He's like, 'cause there hasn't been a second of a minute of an hour of the day for the past two years where I am not directly responsible for entertaining my child, basically. 'cause what else are they gonna do? And that is fucking hard.

Joy Netanya Thompson: It was so brutal.

Quinn: Oh my God. And, but you have to talk about that openly as well. You know, it's like you gotta be on all the time.

Joy Netanya Thompson: Yeah, when COVID started I remember sitting around a conference table, like when they were telling us, Hey, you guys are gonna take all your stuff, you're gonna go home and you're not gonna come back for two weeks. Ha Ha. You know? And I remember just being terrified. I was terrified. My daughter had just turned four. She's, you know, what you'd call a [00:48:00] spicy child. She's just crazy. She has a ton of energy, a ton of demands, you know, and it was like, yeah, I was terrified with two weeks thinking that I was gonna have two weeks with just her and me. I was like, I don't know if I'll survive.

You know? Thank God she was in a daycare that like, took her back at six weeks, after six weeks because they had a lot of emergency workers kids there. And I was like, please, will you take her back? They're like, oh yeah. I was like, wait, could I have done this six weeks ago? So it's kind of like intensive parenting in a different way. Like obviously having multiples is another type of intensive parenting, but like it's so much and, you know, yeah. Like a kid will take up all the air in the room if they can. And you know how you said like your husband was kind of like the center of his parents' universe or felt like, it's like a constant battle to push against that because, you know, she's the only kid in the house, so of course we're gonna kind of revolve things around her. And then there's this constant oh shit, like it's gone too much the other way. And now we have to be like, [00:49:00] no, we gotta pull it back and say life isn't just about you.

And sometimes we have to kind of be dicks to her because we're like, listen, you can't just make that sound right now. That's so annoying. And if you had siblings, you would have someone saying, shut up. You know? And we don't say shut up to her, but we're like, okay, you gotta stop making that sound.

Quinn: The number of times a day I say to my children, I'm gonna need you to not make that face or not make that sound. And they're like, I'm not. And I'm like, everyone knows you are. I dunno what to tell you, but stop.

Claire: Joy, I have told my older son to hit his younger brother, and he refuses 'cause sometimes he'll do this like martyr thing. He'll be like, James always hits me, and I'm like, laid him back. And he is like, no. And I get so mad because I'm like, you would solve so many problems for us in the world if you just showed him his place in the world. So anyway they don't do what you always want them to do just by being there.

Joy Netanya Thompson: But even like sharing resources, like she just assumes everything's for her. You know? If you go to a box of popsicles, when I was a kid, there's six popsicles in the box. There was three of us. You would see your [00:50:00] sister eating a Popsicle and be like, is that your first one or your second one? You know?

Quinn: And so no trust. None.

Joy Netanya Thompson: And my daughter would just eat all six of 'em, and she wouldn't even think that there's two other people in the house that might want one. You know? Or watching TV, you know, she just owns the TV and sometimes we're like, no. You know, like we watch the Tour de France every summer and she's just appalled that we are taking over the TV, you know?

And we're like, if you had siblings, you would only get to watch what you want, like every three times. Like that's kind of, you know, how it was for me.

Claire: James would rather have less if he knew like that Paul, if like he would, I don't know how to explain it, but it's like he will never be that happy if he knows it's possible that Paul had possibly more than him, you know, he could have a million dollars, but if Paul had $1,000,001, it'd be like worse than nothing to him.

Basically. Like the sense of equity is more important than his own pleasure. Yeah, it is. I will say the one thing that my husband, I feel like I had to, that he was an only child about, and he's gotten better about it, but he would get [00:51:00] so butt hurt if he ever felt like he was being, if he was being interrupted or not listened to.

And in my opinion, sometimes if he's listening, sorry Steve, he would tell an anecdote and then take a moment to, I don't know, breathe or think or take a drink. And I would assume he was done speaking and I would start speaking and he would be like, I'm not done. And get like mad about it. And I think that I was like, that's your only child speaking where you never have to get in there.

Joy Netanya Thompson: Oh yeah, that's something my husband, that drives him crazy when we're with my family. 'cause he's like, you guys just all yell over each other. I'm like, yeah that's how it is in a big family. Like but Zadie does do that where she'll be like, you interrupted me. We're like, you were pausing for 20 seconds. Like we're, this is, I've said this to her so many times. Yeah. I'm like, this is how conversation works. You just gotta wait for an opening and then you jump in. That's how it works. So figure it out like we're not gonna.

Claire: And you’re 10. What were you even saying that was so good to begin with? Yeah, no, this is really good [00:52:00] to remember. I think like for me to remember the things I say that like even when you're complaining about the number of kids you have or the kind of family you have, that it might come off as insulting or insensitive to someone else.

And it's always good to remember that everyone's kids are a pain in the ass in their own way. Even if it seems like again a perfect daughter who knows how to parallel park at eight years old and is shoveling the walk, you know, unasked for, and all of those things like Quinn's kids do, obviously super helpful children.

I have a question for you that's sort of related to siblings, but like from your own experience, and I don't know if you wanna go into this too deep, but like, when it comes to blending families, how do you think you guys made out? Do you think your parents did it pretty well or like when you got your brothers, like would you give advice to anyone on blending families based on your experiences?

Joy Netanya Thompson: I was like studying psychology in undergrad and I remember reading about blending families and I was like, oh, my parents did literally everything wrong. They did everything you were not supposed to do. So, yeah they changed everything. Like [00:53:00] we moved houses, moved schools, moved churches, which was a big part of our life at the time.

And you're supposed to kind of try to keep things the same as much as possible. So I was just like, everything was ripped away and that made it really hard. But yeah, I don't know. I think it was really chaotic. I don't know, my sister was 15, I was 12. The other one was somewhere in between there.

There was like a lot of puberty happening. There was just a lot of chaos. But, you know, I don't know. It all worked out. Like I think they treated us, I think maybe this is something good that they treated us like a family right away, where it was like, it's the five of you. It's not like the three sisters and the two brothers.

It's like when we're all together, you know, like my stepdad would discipline us and as much as I hated it at the time, I think it did help us blend more because it wasn't like, oh, he's only dealing with his sons and my mom's only dealing with the girls. So that, I think that helped. And honestly we went on some [00:54:00] trips together, which I think also helped bond us.

You know, like we went to Disney World and that was a total shit show. But, you know, I still remember it. I don't know. Yeah, I think, I don't know. And maybe just letting us like, kind of duke it out too as kids. Like they didn't really step in a lot. I just remember fighting with my brothers and I remember really relishing getting to be an older sibling for once and like getting to boss somebody around and, you know, but yeah.

Yeah, I think it's just time. 'cause now they've been married for 30 years, which is nuts. And like Zadie will sometimes say oh well, but I'm not like blood related to Uncle Chris and Uncle Tim. I'm like, what? Who cares? They're my brothers, you know? And like she thinks, but to me I'm like they're just as part of our family. I don't know. Yeah, I'd say time. That's probably the biggest thing.

Claire: I'm sure there's no way to make it easy. It's like one of those things like child rearing, you know, or taking care of older parents where you can read all the books and they tell you this and that, but that won't make it, you know, [00:55:00] if the people involved haven't read the book and agreed to go along with the book, like it's all useless, you know?

So, I think that's really interesting. Did you, Quinn, did we talk about this? Do you, do your kids fight physically ever? Do they ever get, you know, slap at each other?

Quinn: Yeah, I'm trying to remember if we talked about this. It was hard for my wife to understand 'cause her only sibling is a boy. A whole different thing. But my mine's boy, girl, boy, and I've had to really help her, first of all, not be triggered by and then be okay with, and then become comfortable with, and then even sort of endorse, which we're still working on, the boys beating the shit out of each other in a really, if you look at it closely and you do it more than once, understand like it is their love language.

It is, I would say three outta 10 times, maybe two outta 10 times there's some real antagonism towards the end. But most of the time it's just them getting their shit out and in a positive way. And there's usually laughing [00:56:00] or things and you're just like, wow, he just got thrown down some fucking stairs.

Look at that. But they're still laughing and you're like, but they're not asking me questions. So that's a win. And I've tried to, she's was like, holy shit. Which I think is understandable. Unless you like really grow up in it slash around it and were part of it. So I'm sure there will be more times where it goes south, but we're, yeah, we try to just, I dunno, encourage again, it's really their love language and they have a couple other things in common, sports, things like that.

But, you know, my older kid can sometimes be like, oh he doesn't get baseball. And I'm like, you're fucking six seconds older than he is. Like nice dry buddy. But they get along. I don't know. I dunno. It's funny. I definitely think it was probably more brutal for my brothers and I just ogres, fucking ogres.

Joy Netanya Thompson: I think that siblings are nicer to each other now. Like the families that I know, I'm like, these siblings are so nice to each other compared to what my siblings and I were or what my friend's siblings and they were like I grew up with three other girls, like three sisters and three sisters we grew up together [00:57:00] and one of them would drag her sisters down the hall by their hair.

Like my sisters and I fought physically. I remember one house we lived in there were bar stools and we'd hold the stool apart to our stomach and just hit each other with the stools. Like I, my sister would hit me, like I, yeah. And I remember one time fighting with my brother, my stepbrother and I don't know, we hadn't been steps for that long. And we fought and he had a gash on his knee and accused me of it. And my mom had to stand with our nails out and she's well Tim your nails are all jagged. So you probably just did that to yourself in the heat of the fight. Oh, well, you know, we just moved on.

Quinn: You survived it. They always talk about that with the NBA now, how, like guys get fouled for breathing on each other and you're like, in the eighties or nineties. I mean, what did they call the Blazers? Like the jail breakers or, I mean, it was just like abuse, different rules, different set of rules.

Claire: No, you could just punch someone in the face and get like a mild foul. No, it is, my brother and I would fight until he got to be my size and older. But I still remember, and it was this weird sibling [00:58:00] feeling where we were in the school parking lot and he was gonna walk home, but we were waiting for my mom to pick us up and there were like big storm clouds raging, coming.

And he, I was like mad at him for doing his own thing, but also scared he was gonna get hurt. And we were fighting so bad I slapped him with an open palm, like in the school parking lot. And it was that feeling of terror, you know, and like instant regret and fear, anyway. My kids don't fight like that.

And I, again, the younger one, he deserves it sometimes and he just doesn't do it. And my older son I think he likes being a mellow guy. I think he likes having the moral upper hand. But, you know, it always does give me life when I hear sisters, stories about sisters being assholes to each other.

'cause again, that's just like the life, I don't know. So my friend told me that her daughters will yank each other's point tails. And I'm like, thank you for telling me that, that made me feel better. 'cause like they're, you know, I remember like knees on the chest spitting in the face kind of thing like that. So yeah.

See, aren't you [00:59:00] sad that you're not experiencing this? Zadie could be, imagine she had a brother come along and then he ruined her life. Because I always do think a little brother will ruin a sister's life and you know, she wouldn't be the genius that she is with her beautiful Parisian birthday parties.

Joy Netanya Thompson: Yeah. No, I know she's missing out, but, you know, I don't know. Then she would've had a mom who's dead in a ditch somewhere, so.

Claire: Yeah. Yeah. And who was like mad at her or just more angry at her life. And your pelvic floor is probably in much better shape, you know, just with just her so.

Joy Netanya Thompson: I will say though, like I'm kind, you know, I hate to identify this way, but I'm kind of a highly sensitive person, like noise. All of those things I'm so sensitive to, and I'm so grateful to have one child in that way because if I'm driving her and her friend somewhere, I seriously feel like I'm gonna jump out of the car while it's moving because it's just so loud.

Even though they're not fighting, they're having fun, they're giggling maniacally, and I'm like, it's making me wanna jump outta my skin. So that is, you know, that's what you [01:00:00] have to get used to when you have siblings. I know my sisters and I fought all the time and yeah, even if you're not fighting, you're making noise.

And so, you know, as much as that sounds like I don't know. I hate to admit it, but that just shows how weak I am.

Claire: No accurate and no, stop saying this. Be say the, your self knowledge and your accuracy.

Joy Netanya Thompson: Self knowledge. Sure.

Claire: And yeah, no, I have, I took my, our two boys, are friends with another set of brothers, which was wonderful. And also at the same time we were driving them home from the movies and they were all being so stupid. Oh, it was like Dog Man movies. So they're all going Chicken Jackie or whatever the fuck, what is that the Dog Man movie.? And I, you know, it doesn't matter. But I was like, I want to drive home as fast as I possibly can to get them out of the car.

Quinn: Or just close your eyes and let go of the wheel.

Claire: And again, they're like having a good time. But yeah, you follow that instinct. You are right. They don't get quieter. The more of them there are. So yeah, they don't collaborate. I love this conversation. Siblings are always something that people think they know something about and they don't. And it's [01:01:00] deeply personal.

And siblings don't always guarantee happiness or friendship or you know, anything easy on the parents. And then I think we go deeper and when there's so many siblings, then you start, I feel like once you get above a certain number of siblings, I always feel like the oldest siblings are getting abused in some way. 'cause they end up raising the kids and like having their children like childhood's taken from them.

Joy Netanya Thompson: And then you have the feeling of and my family was like, do I matter? There's five of us. Would anyone notice if I'm not there? You know?

Claire: Yeah. Yeah. Joy, can you tell people where they can find your writing or your work, anything like that? 'cause I know you've covered this topic before and there's people out there who have one kid, or thinking about how many kids to have or you know, just wanna learn more about you. Where can they find you?

Joy Netanya Thompson: Yeah. I'm on Substack. I have a Substack called Midweek Joy, and it's just Joy Netanya Thompson dot Substack. I don't know. But yeah, you can find me there. Midweek Joy and I have written about it before. I'd love to write about it more if people want me to. I know that I'm desperate to hear from other people [01:02:00] who have only, so hopefully this, you know, helped someone feel a little less alone.

Claire: Yeah. Well, and again, I think it helps people be a little bit more careful about the things they, you know, just the silly opinions they toss off about assuming, you know, when it comes to how many kids parents choose to have or can have. And I also wanted to say, I think that when parents are, don't have help nearby, I'm never surprised whenever I hear someone doesn't have folks nearby to help watch that they stuck with one. I'm like, that's very, again, like self-aware, intelligent, strategic. Quinn, any thoughts about kids, siblings, before we sign off for today?

Quinn: No. You know, the only thing I could think of back when we were just, no, not to start a whole new thing, but just to go back to, you know, sitting at the playground and people asking you, and even with the best of intentions or they think they're being helpful, is when you're not pregnant yet, or struggling to be pregnant.

And people say the thing like, ah, have a glass of wine and relax. And you're just like, motherfucker and again, sometimes they're just dipshits and sometimes [01:03:00] it's well-intentioned, but it is, it's man, just there's a great, what is like the stoic quote, like basically like you can just choose to not have an opinion on this specific thing.

You could just not, which I tell my boys all the time because they're the like, the dumbest, most like unearned, confident white guys. You know, I have this, Claire, did I tell you the plane story? I think I'll finish with this. How we were sitting on, and they're smart kids. They're curious kids, they ask big questions, they care, they're thoughtful, they're so fucking dumb.

And we were sitting on a plane and one of my kids, the oldest one, looks back and he's looking out the window and we're getting ready to take off and straight faced, more confidence than you have ever had about anything in your life that the sky is blue. He goes, they don't even need that rudder. I said, and I generally was like, what did you, what? He goes, they don't even need that rudder. Like why is, it is just a waste? And I was fighting so many wolves inside my head to just be like, you're the dumbest fucking person alive. I [01:04:00] don't care how old you are or how long you've been on this planet slash like, you're right.

We should, let's go tell the pilot and let's go tell all the engineers who understand like, and you're just like, ah, God damn it, this is the problem. This is the whole, you people are the fucking problem. They don't even need that rudder. Alright, sure. What else do you believe? You, Jesus.

Claire: I don't mean to, I'm not trying to one up you, but I was watching the kids play basketball and I told my son, my older son, I was like, one of the kids on your team needs to use his body more when he plays and my younger son said, you don't use your body when you play basketball.

And I went off on him 'cause, the way he mansplained basketball to me, and I'm not like a basketball genius, but I did grow up watching Michael Jordan and the Bulls play, and the next day my husband saw him, this younger kid play basketball. He's like, FYI, James doesn't know how to play basketball at all. It was clear by watching him. He doesn't understand shit.

Quinn: Yeah, you're fucking terrible at it, bud. I dunno what to tell you. I remember when we walked outta Barbie and my youngest son looked at my daughter and goes, let me tell you [01:05:00] what it was really about. And I was like, are you fucking kidding me? That was the point of the movie, Jesus Christ, go back in and watch it again.

Joy Netanya Thompson: Okay. I will say though, that the confidence thing might just be this generation and not gendered, because Zadie just started playing basketball. She had her first game ever on Saturday. Driving home, she's like, well, I think I'm gonna go pro.

Claire: She is though, I believe it. Knowing everything I know about her.

Quinn: It's not gonna put a bunch of people in fucking danger. That's fine.

Claire: Yeah. No, I support this. I will go to her games when she is a pro. Joy, thank you for coming. Thank you for reaching out and proposing this chat. This is fun. We could talk about this forever.

I hope you guys have a gentle, now that I know what year it is, unfortunately, I hope 2026 is not increasingly painful as it is trending, but you know, high hopes.