That's A Hard No

Claire: [00:00:00] It is harder than you think to look at your kid's stupid binder every day.

Quinn: Welcome to Not Right Now, the podcast about parenting through all of this.

Claire: We'll be talking about slash crashing out over topics like mental health and gummies and wine and perimenopause, and just giving up.

Quinn: Or not. Don't give up yet until you get the pop-up notification about democracy, when you are truly for once, just trying to be present with, I don't know, man, whatever your kid is trying to tell you that you don't understand.

Or care about, or you're not allowed to say back to them. It doesn't matter. It's not an advice show.

Claire: It's a you're not alone and you're also not crazy for screaming in the shower kind of show. I'm Claire Zulkey from Evil Witches.

Quinn: And I'm Quinn Emmett from Important, Not Important.

Claire: You can find details on anything we talk about in the show notes or at our website, not right now dot show.

Quinn: Dot show. And if you like what you hear today, please share it with a parent who needs it or who might laugh and [00:01:00] tell their kids to be quiet. And then drop us a nice little five star review.

Claire: And reminder, you can send questions or feedback to questions at not right now dot show.

Quinn: Welcome back. Fuck me. Everything's great. How are you? Am I allowed to say you look lovely today?

Claire: Thank you. Well, sure. I got professional family photos done last weekend, so I was on a facial journey. So I was like let's do the whole thing.

Quinn: Can I ask how those went?

Claire: Good. Actually, it's a woman who did our wedding and like our engagement photos, and this is I think the fourth, third or fourth round with us. The last time she took pictures of us, James was not yet diagnosed with ADHD. It's kind of funny, but also sort of sad. Like you can see the tension in a lot of our faces and so they went fine, you know, the nice thing is it's awkward at first.

It's just really weird to behave as if [00:02:00] we like, really hang around each other this much, you know? But I didn't get mad and nobody got mad.

Quinn: That's amazing.

We've done the same thing. I was actually just remarking to my wife last night. There was a picture on the wall about how she claimed when we booked our wedding photographer that it came with engagement photos.

I don't believe it still after all this time. But we have actually done the same thing. The most amazing young woman 15 years later has done a few of ours. Often I tell people, Hey, these are happening.

And no one listens to me until the day of, and then everyone's mad that the children don't have outfits and things like that, even though I tried. But whatcha gonna do?

Claire: Yeah, the night before was our block party and I was talking with some other moms about it, and they were like kind of joking, kind of not, they're like, what is everyone wearing? And I was like, I don't care. Walking that that line of being like, who fucking cares? Like I don't care, you know? But then you're like, well, here we are still paying quite a bit of money for these photos, so you know, care a little bit, so don't wear like your most food covered shirt.

Quinn: [00:03:00] Well, I think that's where, you know, as far as you're recognizing, like picking your battles, it's more about no, than it is yes. I'm gonna say no to nine outta 10 of the things my children surface from wherever the fuck it is, like the bottom of their swim bag to try to wear. And then whatever that tenth thing is like just what we got. It's not a no.

Claire: Yeah. we will do, this will be a Christmas photo. And it was, you know, 76 degrees. So we're not gonna wear our autumn knits, when you get our Christmas card, you'll be like, everyone's wearing shorts. But also we got some head shots done.

And then also we do that very basic thing, you know, where you blow up family photos to like big size and then put them on the wall.

But seriously, the last time we did that, like I work out at home a lot and I was like looking at these pictures of this phase where I was like, I remember this was like not a happy day, so let’s like redo this. So, all that is to say that is why, you know, my face looks so beautiful.

Quinn: It's perfect. That's great. Thank you for the explanation. I described myself the other day as melting from the inside, [00:04:00] so if you're wondering how that's going health wise, but I love the like, we weren't actually mad at each other this time because our house is plastered with photos and there is a fucking story behind each one.

Where you're like, someone in this picture is full of rage, or even at least some spite. Most of the time it's my fault to be clear, like 1000% and not in the ADHD way. And they're like trying to control every aspect of it way, until everyone's just like, well, this isn't fun anymore. Shocker.

Claire: You know, she'd be like, you guys look awkward, you know, or she'll like, this feels more like you, you know? And was, yeah, it was fine. So we got it done.

Yeah. And then we had a late start of school this morning, and so we like relaxed and watched a Project Runway, which was a long commercial for Wicked Two, by the way.

So what is happening? What's the role of that in everyone's lives?

Quinn: The role is, we can see some things coming hasn't started in earnest. And I think we all know at this point what like in earnest means after last year, which is, you know, who is the Supreme Court judge? You'll know it when [00:05:00] you see it. When it's here, you'll know. We're getting there.

You know, you're starting to see things like Dancing With The Stars said that they're gonna do a whole week around it.

Claire: I see it on the cereal boxes at the store.

Quinn: Already? Oh, I don't go to the stores, so. Oh, boy. Okay. Then I guess it started, I don't fucking know. I know when we asked at one point about the marketing and merchandising stuff, they said it'll be about 50% more than last year. And we were like, how's that possible?

Claire: I was telling the boys, 'cause Paul was watching it with me and they had a thousand dollars to take to the fabric store and everyone's plotting 'cause that's so much money. And Paul was like, is that a lot of money? And I was like, yeah. And I was like, but really the people who make this movie are not gonna let these designers make some shitty, cheap ass looking, they're gonna get the nicest fabrics. Nobody is going to put anything down that would look anything less than perfect to make you go see this movie.

Quinn: Yep. Correct.

Claire: Which isn’t bad. That's just the truth, you know?

Quinn: Yeah. So it's coming. It's coming. We are actually, yeah, starting to build the calendar. [00:06:00] It'll be crazy, but it'll be fun.

Claire: How was Dana's birthday? What'd you guys do last night? What did you get her?

Quinn: Well I've really loved your comment here, you said Dana birthday. Do parents have birthdays? And you know, that's what I was wondering at the end of the day, yesterday, at the end of her birthday, I was like, I mean, you know how we've tried not to compare ourselves to our younger selves 'cause it's not fair, different life, all that stuff. But I was like, I usually pride myself on these things.

And I mean it was, I dunno the effort, I'll give myself a B+, which is not great for me. Outcome, to me. I mean, I'm pretty harsh about it. I'd say a C. She said it was fine, but I don't know.

Claire: What did the family do and then what did she do for herself?

Quinn: Well, here's some background. Let's see. All she wanted was a bath and our hot water doesn't work and it's not gonna work again. 'cause we're starting a home renovation in two weeks. And I told them just not to fix it. So there's that.

Claire: Never forget Father's Day.

Quinn: Yeah, that's right. Motherfuckers. You know, let's see, we did like family birthday dinner the night before [00:07:00] because we just had too much shit going on her actual birthday night and it doesn't fucking matter, you know, is it something, did we get something done?

Sure. Clearly the bar's low in our family at this point. So that was nice with the grandmas and we did a little cake and the kids made their cards and shit like that. Then day of, you know, it was a school day, like we did breakfast in bed as per our tradition, but it was like a full two hours before she usually wakes up. So I don't know how pleasant that actually was.

Claire: Sure.

Quinn: You know, which is like, thank you for this, like warmed toast and crumbs in the bed, but clearly none of you have brushed your teeth and the bus is coming in five minutes. So. Great. I don't know if that's better or worse than when it was like, you know, I would throw like toddlers in the bed and they were disgusting and they would just start crying immediately 'cause it wasn't about them.

Which I'm sure we'll get to when we get to actual puberty as well. But, you know, nobody got hurt, I guess. I don't fucking know. And then, you know, it was a work day. And then she came home to more not hot water. And I had to remind her of that. So, you know, I think it was fine.

Claire: Gifts from you, gifts from the kids? You [00:08:00] guys don't do gifts?

Quinn: We do. I didn't participate in whatever the kids got her this year. That was not my role. We have a lot going on. So I didn't totally participate. I got her this really nice set. The most dangerous website I involve myself in, which is saying something, the only one that, well, the most dangerous one, I don't use a private browser for, let's put it that way. It's called Folio Society. I think it's Folio Society. It's fucking fancy reprints of books, of like nice books. And my wife, she had this wonderful sort of fake grandma in her life that she grew up near. And this woman whenever she would get a little money, she would buy herself, which at the time, you know, was not terribly expensive, reasonably.

And she knew they were an investment, Jane Austin First Editions.

Claire: Wow.

Quinn: She only had a few of these. And again, she bought 'em in like the sixties, you know, in the seventies. She had them and my wife kinda grew up around those. They're much more expensive now, so we're not doing [00:09:00] that. And those went to her actual family.

But this Folio Society site, just in I think 250th anniversary, either anniversary of publishing or Jane Austen's birthday, unclear, put out a very fancy version of all five, six, the novels. And I got her that and it's, you know, like hand printed shit in Italy and whatever, and I dunno, it's fun.

She'll never read them 'cause she's dyslexic. And she uses, you know, a special font for that, but it's there.

Claire: Yeah, well she can look them over and touch them and I don't know. That's awesome.

Quinn: We're trying not to do like stuff, 'cause all we're trying to do is get rid of stuff, but what about you guys? Do you still do like, is a birthday a thing? I feel like five years ago we were like, birthdays are week long in this house and there's all kinds of, and this, and now it's, I don't know, man.

Claire: You mean for parents? We are in a blissful season right now where in my family all the birthdays are squinched mainly in the springtime. So we are like, right now I'm not remotely thinking about it. Like Steve’s is very inconvenient 'cause it's like right after Christmas, it's January 10th.

[00:10:00] So like he kind of gets like a little piece broken off of his Christmas haul, you know? And I think I used to try to differentiate more, but who has time?

Quinn: Truly.

Claire: And my birthday is April 15th. I like to get myself like a massage on that day, you know, maybe choose dinner, but no, I do think about, 'cause I'll be 50 in four years, is that right? Something like that. And what do you do for that? I can't even imagine having the wherewithal to gather the brain cells. A couple years ago I was like, so over everyone and I don't even remember what was happening at the time, but I was like, I gotta get the fuck outta here.

And I found a little, perfect little Airbnb, one person house, like on the Fox River in Illinois, like just to be alone and that was great. And so, I don't need that every year, but that was like me really being like, this is what I need.

Quinn: And I think family members should hopefully be able to read the room and tell when that is. And that is usually the case with ours where I will fucking send her away by herself or with a friend. Last year I think I brought a friend [00:11:00] down from New York and I was like, you're here, but you don't have to be here.

Like you guys do whatever the fuck you want. You know, you want to actually see the children like, great, I don't know why, but do it. We just didn't, it didn't work, middle of the week and everything else going on.

Claire: Yeah.

Quinn: That's it. But for me, I'm always like, I would like the little breakfast in bed thing, two to three minutes with the children and maybe a picture, but then I'd also really like to just be alone with my book for a while.

Claire: Oh, I'd like to be acknowledged, I have learned the hard way. I remember was pregnant with James, Paul was a toddler. Steve was like, I think I have to work. Will you be mad if we don't do something for your birthday? And I was like, no. And then I was like, later on crying hormonally. But you know, it's whatever. I'm sure it's easy for her to get lost in the shuffle with back to school. Like, how is that going for you guys so far?

Quinn: It is, yeah. It's less dramatic than last year. Nobody started middle school this year, which is a win. They've all aged considerably. Yeah, for better or worse, mostly better I think. [00:12:00] They're just like often different people, which is wild. But back to school has otherwise been fun.

I mean my daughter, you know, she had to pick an instrument, she picked the violin. I was like, that's great, best of wishes, hasn't practiced once, refuses she's like, oh, they told us we're not allowed to practice yet. I was like, I'm sure that's what they fucking said. Yeah, I'm sure that's what they fucking said.

Hey, you have to have a violin by four Tuesdays ago, but do not practice at home whenever you do.

Claire: That’s like when James said it didn't matter, you weren't required to finish the book that you're doing.

Quinn: Totally. That's how it was when I was growing up. Yeah, don't worry about it.

Claire: I was like, you must think I'm pretty fucking stupid.

Quinn: Yeah. Fucking unreal, man. But I'm like, okay. I mean, you picked it, I told you could have picked fucking percussion like your dumb brothers and me or literally anything else. So good luck. Yeah, it's fine ish. You know, we are in this situation, I think we've talked about before.

Our schools decided sort of during COVID and then kind of kept it going. They're not really doing homework. And I will share it in the show notes, you know, for folks like us who can be home, [00:13:00] are home a lot, two parents, things like that. Kids don't have a lot of health issues, stuff like that.

The research really goes both ways as to whether homework is beneficial and you can look at it in isolation, but it's important to also, like anything, with a family or an education or diet to look at it as part of the whole program, which is, sure, maybe they can get something out of it to an extent, but is that taking away from boredom time, free time, sleep, most importantly, family time, stuff like that. And for this school district, they're doing all right as far as like kids learn in the classroom. The teachers really encourage everyone to, yeah, do flashcards at home if you want, but definitely read at home and stuff like that and do interactive things.

That's really helpful to us. So that makes the back to school easier for sure, is knowing we're not flipping that switch on as well as activities and shit like that. So that's been helpful. That's been helpful.

Claire: It’s interesting that you bring that up. 'cause last night was back to school night, AKA curriculum night where you [00:14:00] go and like briefly meet the teachers and they show you like what they go over. And Steve's out of town right now and the boys both have football. And I just was like, gonna find out this information somehow. I’m usually very good about doing whatever it is. But I was getting some like screenshots yesterday from the group chat about how you monitor your grades or your kids' grades, whether it's through Google Classroom or this other platform that they have. And I just like, I didn't wanna say it on the chat because like I've learned that this chat, it's not non witchy, but you know, it's not all the way witchy.

But I'm like, I really wanna be like, bitch, I cannot, whatever happened to just getting a report card quarterly and maybe like a teacher, like giving you a heads up, like in between being like, you know, and it is harder than you think if, especially if you have a job and other tasks and maybe whatever, we could talk about this later, but like cognitive labor, it is harder than you think to like, look at your kid's stupid binder every day. I don't know why that is too far.

Quinn: It's fucking relentless. We're literally renovating our house so that we're better able to do that, and I still don't wanna fucking do it. No, it's a lot. And again, [00:15:00] we're lucky to be able to like, I'm sure they're fine. And again, as I've talked about, I have gotten the phone calls in the middle of the day to the teacher being like, my class is actively still going on. I just need you to know I moved your kid's desk for the fourth time and I will intervene on that respect. And they come home and I go, I got the call. Here's the deal. Don't fucking do that again. You're making their job harder. It's disrespectful. And that's like a, that's like a red line for me. You get a B on something or fucking C I don't know what to tell you. Like I filled our house with books and shit and you got good genes, like work harder, I dunno what to tell you. But the other shit, we're, you know, again, lucky to be able to say it, but trying more and more to be like the effort and like being a good fucking human is what matters, you know?

So no, I don't need to check their grades every fucking day.

Claire: Well, 'cause Steve had, I mean, I'm lucky for Steve because he is way more patient than I am with things, but like schoolwork and sleep stuff. And James you know, after two weeks of I don't have homework, oh, he does have some project that involves archeology, of course. And so Steve sits with [00:16:00] him and does it. But of course you know, James doesn't wanna, so he's being an asshole. And Steve's like, why are you, I'm helping you. And it's easy for me to say, 'cause I'm hands off, so I'm trying not to like jump in, but I was like, what if he just does a shitty job for the rest of it? What if you don't make him rewrite it?

Quinn: Yeah. Yeah.

Claire: So he can see what, you know, I have a friend who I was texting with over the week who, her kid was in the same boat and she was doing his thing. And you know, I wanted to be like, how are you gonna let this go for next time? So this isn't gonna be your whole school year. 'cause that's insane for everyone.

Quinn: Well, that's the thing. We had a thing the other morning, you know, and again, sometimes they've got stuff where, or a lot of times it's oh, didn't finish it in class, which totally fine. Then you gotta do it at home. But this is a little bit like, I had a thing in here about basically your children failing to communicate with you about things.

And I try not to put the expectations of a 45-year-old onto a child with very little life experience, but I've made things pretty clear, basic shit, and I don't even remember which fucking kid it was the other morning. I've showed you the little checklists we have. You know, I'm looking at 'em like there are two outta 10 things [00:17:00] done here.

And it's basic shit, Claire, we're not asking them to mow the lawn in the morning before school. And they're on their computer and looking stressed out. And I said, bus is coming in 10 minutes. What are we doing here? And they're like, well I gotta finish this thing. I was like, unfortunately for you, like you haven't brushed your teeth yet.

That's required, you made yourself some breakfast and left everything out. That's part of living in a house, being a family. I'm sorry you're gonna turn your shit in late, but you actually have to do those things. They’re like, well then I won't have time. I'm like, then you won't have fucking time. I don't care, figure it out, man. Sorry.

Claire: Cut to, I haven't done this one for a while, but the old throwing the shoes out the front door to give someone a head start.

Quinn: That's great. Oh, I gotta try that. That's really, that's a good one. Fuck. That's great.

Claire: Our days have gotten a lot easier this year because I hired a lady to help me with my scheduling.

Quinn: Oh yeah. I think she doesn't like me already, but continue.

Claire: She doesn't not like you. She's just got, you know what, she has three little kids actually. And I spoke with her, she lives in Chicago, and I was like, how do you do this?

[00:18:00] And she's like, it's easier for me to do this for other people than it is for myself.

Quinn: A hundred percent.

Claire: I was like, respect. But anyway I said, can you possibly come up with a carpool schedule for us and our friends?

And it was interesting to verbalize like all the bullshit that you kind of have memorized internally, where you're like, it takes 15 minutes to get to school. School starts at this time except on Wednesdays when it starts at this time and gets out this time. We also have football, which officially starts at this time, but unofficially starts 15 minutes earlier. And so I gave her all of that information and she just spat out this beautiful carpool schedule. And there was this, I would say at least 40% less anger in the house, just having this set for us, and we do half the time, we do the driving and other time, and I don't know how to explain it, but like we are much calmer.

There's still some yelling for sure, stomping and things like that. But it's been amazing, like worth it for sure.

Quinn: That's fucking amazing. I mean, truly that shit can change your life, man, because again, like you said, cognitive load. It's all relative. Like you've made things a little bit easier. It's still cluster fuck, you know?

Claire: [00:19:00] Well, that's not how I think. And like it shouldn't sound like it should be like that big a deal, but if you are for as if in my life, like as I was like went from working for a job where someone tells you what to do and you meet these milestones to working for yourself and you have to set it up for yourself, like I find that part very stressful. The setup part of it and the admin of it. And I hate being like, I can only blame myself if I fuck it up. Now I have this other person and I don't presume she'll fuck it up, but if she does, it's not a hundred percent my fault.

Quinn: Yeah. That's fucking great. And it's also not your spouse who's like, then I'm gonna fall asleep on the couch. Fuck you. You know, it helps. That is often, and again, you only really gain this with experience is the complications of having family help in raising kids because it is not someone who works for you, and you do have to treat them a little differently.

Not to say you don't treat people who work for you differently, but the expectations are a little different. Does that make [00:20:00] sense?

Claire: Oh yeah, so this book I'm talking about, it's called What's On Her Mind by Allison Daminger. And she is a sociologist at University of Wisconsin. And she had me do a conversation with her, but she just did this interesting work. It's kind of, it's research that's sort of based on emotional labor, but it's more about the decision making that goes behind running a family and house.

Quinn, you're interesting 'cause you are among the handful of people I know who have the non-traditional like labor, and by which it's not only who's in charge of the groceries, but who's always thinking ahead about what are we running low on, or we could make this next week or whatever. Or like how much paper towels there are in the house. Just things like that, the research and stuff. And Steve is like pretty good about that kind of stuff, but still, sometimes not. And like we have one of the old like, I took a picture for him to illustrate a photo to show where some dishes go that he tends to leave out after they've been washed. 'cause he like couldn’t possibly know where they go and it is one of those like decision making things for me where I'm like, do I just put 'em away and just accept that he [00:21:00] doesn't know that these live like literally a foot away?

Quinn: Correct.

Claire: Or do I just live in anger? Is it just my job? But he didn't disagree with that sort of analogy about like how there's sort of like a leader, they call it a superhuman and a bumbler.

Quinn: It's aggressive, but not not fair.

Claire: Yeah, exactly. So anyway, it was very interesting and it was a good way of thinking about how, I don't know, I think I would get mad at myself, be like, why am I so tired with all this admin? Like I should just be able to absorb it. And then you're like, no, this is like a lot of brain power.

Quinn: It is a lot of shit. It's a lot of shit. And we've had conversations before where I fully understand why people in our help circle from my wife to my more sentient children to grandmas, whoever, will I think less so often now, but still understandably and rightfully, occasionally feel controlled by me.

Which is, and that is the word they use. And I totally get it because sometimes it does go over where I'm like, well then we gotta go here and we gotta do this. And if we don't [00:22:00] do this and we gotta do this, they gotta do this. And no, you can't do those six things 'cause we already got this and this. I get it.

My argument is usually, and I think is fair, is like I'm just trying to baseline keep the trains running and if possible set the unit up for success, even if not everybody gets what they want all the time. Right, while still having some free time and things like that. I try now much more when, you know, the grandmas, when they want to drive or watch your kids or whatever, I try to set it up as much as I feasibly can and then say to them, what do you want to do?

How much do you want to help? And really be like no, you tell me. To the point where I'm like, great, but I'm not losing control of well now this jackass isn't gonna get to chess club or whatever. And that took a while, obviously, but again, I get why eventually some people were just like, can I have a fucking minute?

Can we just do anything else? I'm like, no, I get it. We need to have that sometimes you got to back off. But the alternative in our house is that nothing happens or [00:23:00] works, which by the way is fine sometimes.

Claire: Yeah, exactly. You have to be like, all right, maybe it is possibly unfair to expect this 10-year-old to consider the power of my personal to-do list and his role in making me satisfied in getting these things done. Like he may overestimate. So, it can be hard out there. Now, what did you think, I dunno if you happen to see this Evil Witches, but I was interviewing, I was talking to a woman who wrote an article from the point of view of a much younger mom, and she pointed out that there's apparently some trend, and this doesn't sound that unfamiliar. It sounds like gentle parenting, but just more whatever, that people are, I guess you don't say no to like your very young children.

Like you try to never say no, instead of saying no hitting, we don't hit things like that. Have you heard this? Has this come up for you?

Quinn: I have definitely heard it and it's not that I disagree with it fully, in theory, I think practically it becomes pretty difficult, especially like when we had three under three at some point. 'Cause on the [00:24:00] other hand I do. And this is kind of what I meant with what are they gonna wear to family pictures?

I think constraints can also, if I guess managed and communicated well with expectations, can actually lead to more freedom. Does that make sense?

So if we say yeah, we're not doing fucking screens this weekend, the answer is no, but you can do anything else. I do think that kind of unlocks 'em a little bit. That would be my argument, kind of, you know, when we're such believers and yeah be bored, figure it out.

I dunno, do something or do nothing. But here's the two things like we're not doing. No. But you can do anything else and figure it out. I think it's important. It always reminds me, I've used the example before of, when you were in school and your teachers would be like, write a paper of any length about anything.

And you're like, this is never gonna fucking happen. But if they say, write 500 words about the last week of summer and you can't write about anything else,

done, easy, right? You can do that all day. So I think it's expectations and communications and stuff, but I mean, I fucking get it. [00:25:00] And I definitely catch myself being the party of no too often.

I feel like that was more so when they were younger and trying to kill themselves at all times either purposefully or not. And now it's probably actually easier for me 'cause now again, as you can probably tell by this conversation, I'm in much more of just say best wishes, fuck around and find out. Great. All right, well you didn't turn it in. I dunno what to tell you. You do have to brush your teeth. I dunno. I get it.

Claire: Yeah. To me, it just seems like there's an obvious moment in your life and your child's life where they need to know that they're asking a question by which the fundamental principle is ridiculous and not worth your time of expanding further.

Quinn: Yeah, well, I think that's respectful and that has some empathy to it, but also that there's and I know you have it kind of noted here, in a world where a lot of like sort of assumed rules and best practices and assumptions of how we operate as a society have been tested and just completely gone away.

Turns out they just relied on like volunteerism. I [00:26:00] do really sincerely believe even before that, but now that there is, there has to be underlying like ethical and moral boundaries whether you are religious or not, or whatever the fuck. That you operate by. And that involves saying no to things and establishing these are the things our family says yes to.

And these are the things our family says fucking no to. That's the deal. And you know, I think that's probably more important than ever. You know, again, our kids aren't really allowed to, they have iPads. They don't get to use 'em that much. They very gently, I will add someone to their contacts outside of each other and us, a friend.

And one of them at one point again, we're like, we read all your fucking texts. At one point, one of them sent a message to a friend and was like, called the bus driver a bad name. And I said, guess what? Now you lost it. 'cause we don't do that. Straight up, full stop. That's it. That's it. So that's a no for me.

There's no, there's nothing like you can do to explain [00:27:00] yourself that's gonna earn it back, motherfucker. I dunno what to tell you. I dunno. What about you guys? How much do you say no everyday, compared to five years ago?

Claire: I mean. I think we've all gotten older and more mature, so I don't think I have to say it as much, but it was funny 'cause I was talking about that in my newsletter the other night, and then James gave me, he teed up a perfect no situation where Steve's been outta town all week.

And James, every night, not every night, but he asked at bed time, if we can Zoom with dad and I'm like, where the fuck do you think, like when have we ever done this, when you are in your bed, like in your pajamas? So I just said no, you know?

And one that was actually, I wasn't trying to be funny, but I was funny, I called Steve to ask him something and he was in the car with the boys and their two friends who are like, you know, they're good homies. And I asked him this question and I knew I was on speaker phone. He said, do you have anything to say to Paul and their friends?

And I said, no. And I hung up the phone. And Paul got home and he is like, mom, that was cold. And I was like, good.

Quinn: [00:28:00] Yeah, you're welcome. Fuck you. How's my day? That's outstanding. But I also think there's like you saying, everyone's maturing in some ways and in other ways, not because now they're testing in this and this, like at one point, you know, I had again, like we have a Nintendo Switch. They don't get to use it much, but when we do, it's Mario Kart, this and that.

And I think I had taken it and put it in some drawer somewhere and they had some friends over and I found one of our children, like literally going through my bedroom drawers and nightstand and Dana's, and I walked in and I was like. Why do you think that this is an option for you? Let's start there.

Not just get the fuck out, but start, take me back to the beginning where you thought I'm allowed to do this. Sure.

Claire: Wait, this is not your child?

Quinn: No, it is my child. No. It is my child.

Claire: Okay. All right. Good.

Quinn: But still I was just like, just have a seat. Talk me through this. That you would think that this is an option and okay. Are you fucking kidding me?

Claire: I need to know, is there anything in those drawers that like they should not especially, they should not be?

Quinn: [00:29:00] Possibly, I mean, not that any of it's used in any capacity but at the same time, fuck off, boundaries, no.

Claire: No, I agree completely. I also believe that, I guess from my own experience, it's like you go rattling through your parents' like you may discover things you never wanted to find out. And it’s a good lesson.

Quinn: Yeah. Well now maybe I'll just start planting things in there, right? Where I'm just like, all right, you want to go through the drawers, let’s see what you find?

Claire: Yeah exactl.y Did you read the article in New York Magazine about Roblox? I haven't even brought myself to read it yet because I know the premise is it’s coming for your kids. But I'm like, well, I don't wanna read that. That's gonna not gonna feel good.

Quinn: No, I don't feel like I have to, I think I get it. I see the headline and I'm like, no, I get it. It doesn't surprise me. It's like reading a thing about climate. I'm like, I wonder if this headline's good. I got it. I got it. You know?

Claire: Exactly.

Quinn: So could you expand on, and I want to note for listeners here, there's two exclamation points. I don't want breakfast right now!!

Claire: Oh yeah. That [00:30:00] was how I started my morning and in our family we have this tradition of I make Nutella toast on Fridays just started like a long time ago.

Quinn: What a fucking delight you are.

Claire: Well, James was not into it. And I do respect the waking up process. He comes down and he takes this pill and I think I started to offer him breakfast, and that was how he spoke with me, like the very first exchange of the day.

So, you know, and you're just confronted with one of those, you know when we spoke with Sarah Walker before our break about choosing your battles of like when your kid is talking to you like shit ass, and there's a part of me that'd be like, I wanna just twist your head around and pop it off and throw it on the ground.

But what is the benefit of starting off hard? You know, I think I did say something like, oh, I'm sorry. Please let me know when I can start something. Not great. You know? I didn't completely let it go, but yeah. Anyway, I just thought you'd appreciate that was how my morning started and how I was spoken to.

Quinn: Yeah. And it really both, again, we all mature and things change over time and eventually you're like, this motherfucker, have a great day, [00:31:00] bud. And obviously I feel like, again, like it's like the pornography thing where you're like, if they need speaking to harshly in this moment, I will do it.

But I definitely find myself same thing like you're saying half the time, being like, okay.

Claire: Well, and it was like not to pat ourselves in the back, but I guess I did a good enough job not losing my shit at him because he asked me to play a game with him, like on the way, they had a late start this morning so he asked to play a game and I could've said, we don't have time, or you know, fuck off.

But I said yes. So good job me, I didn't ruin our relationship so badly that he was like, I'd rather play a game by myself than ask my mom. 'Cause he will play a game by himself without asking me often. So I don't know how much breakfast he actually did end up eating, but that's his teacher's problem, not mine.

Quinn: You know, where I will put a foot down a little more is be like, again, you can choose not to eat breakfast, but you don't get to fucking take it out on me or anybody else later when you're clearly hungry. So I'm gonna put this snack in your bag. [00:32:00] I've done my part, man, but if I get a call from the teacher, just know I'm not blaming them for any of this shit, motherfucker.

Claire: Yeah. James is hard because he really is so ADHD that he will like not pay attention to his food sometimes, especially in the morning. 'cause he likes to read and do his like, did you see the Reel that was going on in Instagram about how baseball is like the most autistic sport?

Quinn: No, but it fully is obviously.

Claire: And my life is so Rainman, but with sports stats, there’s just sheets everywhere of lists of names and numbers and so anyway he’ll be like balls deep in something like that. And I'm like, you need to put some food in your mouth.

Quinn: Oh yeah, no totally. I think that's one of the, and I've come to deal with it like. There's a really great author and blogger. His name's Austin Cleon.

He wrote Steal Like an Artist. It's been around forever. He's great, great little blog. It's not little at all. But he wrote a recent one I'll put in the show notes, which I have been, I guess simultaneously doing as well, which is he just talks about not setting up his house as a library per se, but almost like filling it with books.

So that is the most [00:33:00] predominant option, but also selectively, like he will leave specific books out, like little traps for them. Like not handing it to them 'cause God knows then they won't fucking do it. But little things. And I've also noticed that, you know, obviously over time there's times I have to say insane things, especially for someone wearing this dumb fucking T-shirt where I have to be like, put the fucking book down and eat your food.

And I'm like, I mean, some parents would beg for that, this and this, but I don't know. I also need you to not get hangry and take it out on everybody.

Claire: Yeah. Completely. May I do a hard transition into something timely?

Quinn: By all means. Come get 'em.

Claire: I saw this, like this poster that seems so quaint right now, this Hands Off Chicago poster, which was like three weeks ago now. That was so long ago.

Quinn: Yeah, that was the tone. We're no longer at that tone.

Claire: No, that's over. But, tell me any fucked up conversations you've had to have with your kids over the last couple weeks about current events and what that spells out for their future or what they need to be concerned about. Any one thing, you can pick one.

Quinn: I mean, we can [00:34:00] talk about the Charlie Kirk shit. You know, our kids aren't online much, if at all, at our purview, but obviously your circle extends to friends who are allowed to do certain things and not and not that, I mean, some of it's bad, Roblox, and some of it's just consuming the media ecosystem, which as we all know is fucking rotten to the core and often purposefully.

And so I am sure, I haven't verified with any of them, I am sure at least one of my children have seen the video of this person's neck exploding. I'm sure because it was everywhere and it was tough to miss and people show each other shit. Probably helpful that, you know, phones are banned here in schools from bell to bell.

But they can still have 'em on the bus and shit like that, and they have other activities. And that's a tough one. We've had conversations and it's interesting where one of them will say, again, with all innocence, [00:35:00] like they don't know who this person is, but they heard from someone who is just like.

Oh, but like I heard he's like a good like family person, you know? And you're like, yeah, one that's totally not your fault to have heard that or for your friend who had heard that. You know, and we can break that down factually, which is what I really try to do as much as I possibly can, which is to go, like that person was a, they did have a family.

We can start there 100%. And it's terrible when any child's left without a parent of any kind, in isolation. Of course. Totally true. And you can also respond with the facts of how this person not just lived their life, but evangelized how other people should live their life by supplying direct quotes about what they said and that their work was to literally go to other places and try to evangelize their worldview in a very practical way, by the [00:36:00] way, not just like in a philosophical way, to other young people which then led, and this is possibly the most important part of it. I try to tell them like, it's pretty difficult to refute empirically that this person swayed enough people, young people, to swing an election that now is actually hurting people.

And so, I try to take my extraordinary bias out of it, but I do believe it's right, you know, seated in being righteous about justice and such. But I try to say. I totally understand how you heard that. That's not your fault. That's not anybody's fault. It's programmed that way, man.

And, it's like the worst fucking game of telephone on the planet and a lot of it's on purpose. But here are the facts and I'll say that about anybody, whichever way it goes, you know? So we've had that conversation 'cause they were like, fuck, I didn't know all that. I'm like, yeah, it's still, no one should be shot.

Full stop. I am, you know, [00:37:00] I know I'm not gonna run for office because my position is the guns should all be bought back and fucking melted down into the one ring, thrown into the fire. You know, that's not reasonable clearly. But at the same time, we have made it possible.

Claire: Well, there's so many things that I feel like I could talk about with them that I don't even wanna go that deep on it because there's a certain extent to which I don't think they should have to have me talk to them too much about Charlie Kirk because it is so wild to me that was like happening the same time as September 11th. Was it the same day even? Day after?

Quinn: Sure

Claire: And I still can't believe that was like not the most fucked up thing that happened in our lifetimes. I think I thought that was like, well that's it. This will be the defining moment.

Quinn: Best luck topping that. Kinda like when they shot up a class of kindergartners and we're like, well, now we're gonna fucking do something about it.

Claire: Yeah, so what was interesting was that the kids heard about it at football practice and I said, oh, did you hear that he was, what kind of guy was he? Like a good guy or a bad guy? And they said he was a bad guy. And I was like, okay. Like I didn't say anything like 'cause, [00:38:00] and then we had an interesting dinner because I did not see the footage and I read a lot of people's responses to the footage who are saying like, I wish I hadn't seen that, and I started getting sad thinking about my kids, like when they do get online and see that. So we had a talk saying like, when you are more online. Again, maybe they already are more online than I'd like to think, but I was like, it is very easy to find violent footage of things and I was like, I don't even know what I said, but I tried to say it's bad for you.

It's not good for you. So just try to keep that in mind basically. But then, at James' football practice, which is a football game. This children's JV game. They did the pledge of Allegiance and the Star-Spangled Banner, and they took several moments of silence for Charlie Kirk, who to these suburbs is local.

Quinn: Did they do it for the other two kids that were shot that day as well? I'm assuming.

Claire: What do you think? And I was just really glad I wasn't there for it. First of all, it wouldn't be about me. Obviously, it's not our team. There was a part of me that was like, I hope our coach wasn't a part of this, and it wasn't his gig. And just being like I'm just glad [00:39:00] I wasn't there because I'd end up going off on the boys and they don't need to be a part of this bullshit.

They were probably wrapped up in their own shit, you know? But I was like, what do these children have to do with this? You know, but anyway, yeah I wanna now talk to Paul, but I am, I'm kind of phasing out my, you know, my talking to’s. I try not to give too many.

Quinn: Your drive-bys? Yeah.

Claire: Yeah, exactly.

Quinn: But can I stop there for one second? Can I be fo fully fucking honest? This is not one of your drive-by scenarios, which we all find entertaining and are so true and we do all the time. I mean, my kids will literally give my wife a plaque that says, study show. 'cause she'll walk up to them doing anything and be like, study show when you sit like that.

And they're like, fuck mom. This is not that. This is a full scale fucking emergency where no one has ever grown up like this, ever in history ever, ever, ever from the fucking printing press on. Right? Has ever grown up like this and it is fully 1000% whatever your politics, whatever your religion, whatever your [00:40:00] family situation, whatever your sexual orientations or gender, none of it fucking matters.

It is inexcusable and on purpose that the fight is put on the kids and the parents, full stop. Because it is just people reaping the benefit from it with no care for the damage done. So these aren't drive bys. This is you operating in a fucking emergency where this, like you said is the one thing that just fucking happened last week and now we fucking moved on.

You're like, is 9/11 not enough? You said that the day before. I remember our 12-year-old came home and he goes, we learned about the Falling Man today. And I was like, Jesus Christ and I was like, here's the story and this and that. And I'm like, I'm sorry you had to learn about that.

And I can't believe it's been 24 years. Next day. It just goes on and on and it is not your fault and this is what we have to do. It's fucking terrible.

Claire: This isn't funny, but I am gonna laugh 'cause it like is so absurd. But Paul's been working I feel like forever on the Holocaust project as well, and you're like, I think it's almost funny. I'm like, when do they get a break?

Quinn: By the way, so [00:41:00] important to learn. So important to learn, but the way to learn it. I'm gonna pause, I wanna recommend, and we've got some of this in our app but there's a thousand different versions of it. Are you familiar with John and Hank Green's crash courses?

Claire: Yeah. John and I go way back. Not to brag.

Quinn: Oh, okay. No, that's awesome.

So they're such a version of a model for us. It's great. They have two really great courses which are helpful in this scenario. One is, let's see, which one is this one? Navigating Digital Information, and I'll put the link in the show notes. And the other one is Media Literacy. And truly, like your family can sit there and watch the whole course and do a piece every night.

It's just really fucking helpful stuff. And they have other stuff on, you know, biology, black history, which is great, and stuff like that. But for right now, like everybody needs it. It's like everybody should take First Aid. That's where we are because it is causing harm.

Claire: Well, the one I started teeing up today, 'cause we were watching Project Runway on Hulu and I already was like, the shit is already on my feet of people who've canceled Disney, canceled Hulu. I'm like, I can't, at least while Steve's outta town. I can't deal [00:42:00] with a whole, you know, technological transformation at this point.

But I started saying people are mad at Hulu and I'm not there yet. I haven't formulated my discussion yet about the First Amendment, but also being intelligent about what you post on social media. And I'm like, how do I queue this up? 'cause it's not even on social media and yet, and how do I, so anyway, I'm still like baking my lesson.

Quinn: I get it. And here's what's gonna happen. You're gonna keep baking. It's gonna be so well considered and then something else. 'cause it's fucking Tuesday. And that's the thing. It's overwhelming. And it's really frustrating. You know, we had this talk, and again, it was my 12, almost 13-year-old who loves being a big kid, you know, like any big kid excited about this and that new things and everything they used to know came from us and now it's well beyond that. And we finished a version of one of these talks in the past two weeks. And he just, he literally just said to me, I don't even know if I told Dana this yet. And he literally said to me, he goes I just wanna be 12.

Claire: Oh.

Quinn: And I was like, God, I was so fucking mad. And again, you cannot be sheltered your whole life. And a lot of kids grew up knowing this [00:43:00] shit 'cause it's part of their family, whatever, domestic violence, you name it. But again, it's really fucking unfair and it makes me furious.

Claire: I was gonna say one nice thing that doesn't involve parenting at all, but just made my heart happy, was watching the Emmys and I have a friend who, her husband is a writer on the Colbert Show. And so it made me very happy to see like the room come together as one, you know, for that.

And you know, and again, I'm like, I can't explain this to the kids currently 'cause I'm like, it involves ownership of the networks and, you know, all this stuff.

Quinn: Dana tried to explain that to the kids last night, and then I got so deep into like regional radio stations. She was like, we've lost them, you know? And I'm like, I know, but this is how it is.

Claire: Not to be cheese ball, but one of the gigs that keeps me busy is this new the Evanston Round Table parenting newsletter I have.

When I was younger in journalism school, it was like, definitely like you cut your teeth on local journalism, and you know, and that was something you did on the way up to your real job. And now I'm feeling, and maybe it's 'cause I don't have a real job, but I am like very pleased to be working in local [00:44:00] journalism. Did I tell you this? You know, we still are driving the Tesla, the lease is up this winter, but I have a magnet on it. It says Support Local Journalism, which I feel like is the non explicit way of being like, I'm a gentle libtard, please don’t set fire to my car. Which by the way, doesn't that feel like six years ago now? Remember the whole?

Quinn: The oldest news there's ever, Watergate and that happened at the same fucking time. Yeah. Yeah.

Claire: Like the Ali North scandal.

Quinn: Yeah. Right. Exactly. Oh, you mean the Iran Contra testimonials? The same week as Elon. Yeah. Fucking Jesus Christ. And again, you also, you would be angry, but also just oh my God, just like cackling. I feel like a fucking crazy person sometimes.

Claire: It's literally not right now. I literally, not right now, can't deal with curriculum night. But also, you know, fascism.

Quinn: Claire, what have you done with the 700 stickers I sent you? Have you given them out to everybody you know?

Claire: I did, there was late, I dunno if you saw and I dunno if she's listening, but and Evanston mom said I did leave you a review, but I don't want more shit in the house, so I offered [00:45:00] to drive over.

Quinn: But that's our fucking listener. That's it. That's great. Fantastic. Here's a review. Don't you dare fucking send me that doorknob.

Claire: Yeah, I know exactly. If you said it to me, I will give you a bad review on purpose.

Quinn: So I gotta ask a question then, as we've talked about all this different shit and back to school and again, fascism and live murder and birthdays. How is it going, taking care of yourself? How are your routines? How is your self-care? It's been, what have we, it's been what, six weeks, something like that. How are we doing? What's going on?

Claire: Oh, you know what, I say not bad. I have doubled down on certain things for some reason because I have realized that as much as I yearn to do nothing, doing nothing is usually the path to madness and depression. So, I committed to go into even more Orange Theory classes per month.

Quinn: Great.

Claire: I got a free umbrella, which is my Orange Theory swag.

Quinn: That's how the cult starts.

Claire: And it could be worse. It could be a worse cult.

I am helping co-host a school fundraiser dinner tomorrow. And then someone said, are you interested in taking the lead on [00:46:00] selling concessions at the boys football game? I internally said, no, I'm not interested at all and taking the lead, but I will do it. So, I'm gonna be sitting selling ring pops and shit at this football stand. Come see me at Robert Crown next week.

Quinn: How does that, what does that have to do with taking care of yourself? You just didn't, you were like, I go to Orange Theory and on the other end you said reading, and in between you obligated yourself to something you didn't want to do.

Claire: Because that will be time that I'm not on the computer, that I'm not on Reddit.

Quinn: Okay. That's fair. That's fair.

Claire: That I’m not reading the news, spiraling through my six par mainstream newspapers, that all have a flawed perspective.

Yeah, those are some of the things. How about you?

Quinn: I mean, it's not ideal, but like the bar's low and remember the, was it the World Champs last year when the guy jumped over the bar, but he didn't get there 'cause he hit it with his dick. Did you see that?

Yeah, that's, I feel like where we are, where everyone’s like, he totally would've made it if I guess his cock wasn't so big and good for him. I don't fucking know. I'll exercise for two days and on the second day be [00:47:00] like, I'm about to get in the best fucking shape of my life, which, by the way, is saying something.

And then six days later. Nothing has happened, like it's gone in the other direction to the point where I think last night I literally said out loud, standing in my closet where I hide my gummies as I put two gummies. I didn't eat them. I put them under my tongue. Emergency. Emergency, if I hadn't literally said out loud to myself in the closet.

I think from now on, it's a two gummy night. So that's I guess where the bar is. And I'm frustrated. I gotta get back to it. But at least for the next few weeks. There's no routine in our future.

Claire: Yeah.

Quinn: We're fully moving out next week. We're also, we gotta go to this Wicked concert next week in LA for three days, like complete chaos.

Claire: Yeah. Well, I think it's honestly good to just know when to walk away, you know? And to not pretend that you're gonna be able to throw some kind of, you know, system over or make it work. Like sometimes you just gotta go, you know, just say fuck it. I have a friend who I feel so bad for her, but she [00:48:00] relocated from New Orleans to New York City for a job that she just got, which is a major culture change.

And her kids who are about your kids' age are behind it, and she is living in a furnished apartment in Manhattan. And she said her idea of furnished in Manhattan is not what she thought. You know, she thought there might be a bed, for instance. And so I was just saying you should just get paper plates, paper utensils. Just fuck it.

Quinn: Fuck it.

Claire: Just get through it. And just do the best you can.

Quinn: Truly that's where my, this morning, I'm not kidding. We're sitting at breakfast for a minute. I don't remember which child it was. Doesn't matter. One of them looked around at the state of our house, which is in fucking tatters at this point. So here's the things. We got our building permit to start in two weeks, since we've gotten that hot water stopped working, dishwasher stopped working, two smoke alarms failed and like a bunch of other shit. And we've been sort of packing, getting rid of shit all this. One of the kids looked around as they're like eating their fucking yogurt and they looked around, they go I think I'm gonna move out today.

And I was like, you know what? Good luck, I guess. Good luck. They were like, [00:49:00] grandma's already got like a room set up for me. I think I'm just gonna go. And I was like, I get it. Like I get it. Like good luck. This wasn't me trying to do even close to the organized controlling thing. I was just like, let me know if you need help with your bags.

Claire: Yeah, that's fine. I mean, it’s a little adventure. It's like being a boxcar child.

Quinn: It is an adventure, but that's where we are is I'm like, am I gonna get in a run? You know, like to where? From something, maybe I'm not chasing anything. So it would have to be something chasing me at this point.

Claire: Do you know how we're gonna dive even deeper into the morass is that we've been talking about, and I think the timeline is starting to rise up of getting another dog and, you know, we are gonna get a puppy because we’re so stupid. Yeah, I know.

Quinn: Girl, fuck. What a self goal. What an own goal.

Claire: Well, yeah, it'll be, again, I won't be, you can't catch me like going into a deep dive on whatever in the news.

Quinn: No, fuck when you're gonna do that. And by the way, we decided to do that as well. I mean, and I think I've talked about this, but I fully leaned [00:50:00] into it as far as again, the line, no, I'm saying no actively to my children. You can call that gentle or not about everything coming in the house. But if they are increasingly and in a wider variety, interested in something that is like relatively nourishing to their mind or body or culturing that is not being on a screen. I'm like, great, congratulations. You have a keyboard now. Or here's catcher's gear, or here's a volleyball. Like great. Because again, we are in an overwhelming losing battle and you have to do what you are capable of doing.

And if your thing is like selling fucking ring pops and you're not technically allowed to be on your phone, I will actively take timer shift at my kids' swim meets. But because it's a safe sport, they don't let you have your phone. And while you're back there behind the blocks and I'm like, great. Six hours not allowed to, not my choice.

Sorry. Can't participate. Yeah. Whatever is required. So if you gotta get a new fucking puppy, which wow, that first year is gonna be an adventure.

Claire: I [00:51:00] know. Well, you know, the puppy is secretly, I feel bad for her. It's gonna be a girl. 'cause I think Ollie can't live with another boy like, but she is already the comfort measure for when Ollie, you know, dies.

Quinn: She has no idea that's her explicit purpose.

Claire: No. And I already, this is so funny 'cause this is like when I was pregnant with James and I was like, well no child can be as good as Paul. I already feel sad for him and that's how I feel about this dog.

Quinn: Perfect.

Claire: And then James was the most fun baby. Like I had such a good time with him.

Quinn: I'm 90% sure that my children only exist to have been a buffer for when my wife's first dog died. If the children didn't exist, I'm not sure she would've gone through it and made it through.

Claire: I had a moment where I thought the dog had cancer. And I seriously was, I don't wanna be light about this, but I kind of was like, I'm gonna like insert expression of self-harm desire here if this dog dies before my parents and before Donald Trump. That was a non-negotiable.

Quinn: What kind of fucking world is that? What are we talking about?

Claire: Not sticking around for that.

Quinn: Yeah. Bye. [00:52:00]

Claire: Someone's gonna have to wash your clothes now, but not me.

Quinn: I'm good. Yeah. No. Fuck that. No, fuck all that. Oh my God.

Claire: But you know what is like weirdly cute is that Paul is somehow excited for high school. And that makes me, I find that charming. I don't know if it's how long he'll stay excited, but I'm like, you should be scared. Like, in my mind you should be nervous.

Quinn: Yeah, you're wrong.

Claire: Yeah, exactly. Like you are gonna get your ass kicked, white boy. But not really. I’m happy for him that he is thrilled about this new phase. So that makes me glad for him. We'll see if this continues.

Quinn: I think we talked about that's how our oldest was going into middle school, he was fucking jazzed. And then two weeks in, he was like, fuck, got it. It's the only way to go, man.

Claire: Is he high school next year too, or he’s eighth grade?

Quinn: No, eighth grade, so we do proper, like sixth, seventh, eighth, middle school and then high school.

It's crazy. But again, I feel like we're all like really setting expectations. Charlotte had a presentation the other day and a teacher invited everyone. She's like, middle of the day, if you can come, great. If you can't, [00:53:00] who cares? No pressure. She's great. And we're like, Hey, we're excited to come to your presentation. She's like, it's not gonna be great. And I was like, perfect.

Claire: Good.

Quinn: That's what I'm like, it wasn't, I'm excited or I'm nervous. She was just like, it's not good. And we're like, great. I don't care.

Claire: I wish I had sent you the long single space email we'd gotten about lunchtime, cafeteria behavior and how we all had to talk to our kids about it, and I picked the kids and their friends up. And according to them, it was sixth and seventh grade and they represent fifth and eighth grade.

So I was like, okay, satisfactory. And I was like, you understand right, not to throw food in the cafeteria? Yes. Okay. All right. This is done now.

Quinn: Yeah, that's it. Yeah. I've done my part, which again, I've said no, I've made clear, like not happening.

Claire: This is sort of like all over the place, but I had an interesting conversation with a friend yesterday about first steps people need to take to move their parents out of their old house. But it really began, it was a talk about being an oldest daughter more, it was such an interesting, she was like[00:54:00] here's the real estate talk. Here's the oldest daughter talk. And do you guys, is that dynamic present in your or Dana's families at all where, you know, big sister kind of bears the brunt?

Quinn: Dana is one of two siblings. She's the younger of the two. On my side it's three fucking idiot boys and then my sister. And even, I'm misremembering this 'cause we know memory doesn't work this way, but there's truth to it.

I remember when we moved into this house that my parents built when I was 10. So my sister was four and she's the only one who got a room with a bathroom attached, the biggest room, bathroom, you name it, view of the front yard, the whole thing. And I remember, and again, incorrect. But we're gonna say it's real, being like quick question. Like why does the baby get a [00:55:00] shower? And her own toilet. And I am fairly sure my dad was like, well, we like her more. And the answer is that's the right answer. The rest of us are fucking morons. So we don't have as much that for sure. Yeah, I don't know. It's complicated. Like I fully get that and I see it in a lot of friends. Ours is just weirder 'cause it's a bunch of morons at the top, including my dad.

Claire: Do you feel like Charlotte, do you see her being, taking the role ever of being like the you know, the voice of reason, project manager among the three of them or not yet?

Quinn: That's a good question. I think she will in a well-intentioned way, if she sees something is going awry with the boys, she will offer to help, I think, and be like, I'll find it. I know where it is. Or I can do that. I'll be here, let me help this and this. They will either be grateful or dick's, mostly grateful.

I do think she does it partly out of she knows she will receive adulation and praise which by the way is warranted. Thank you and great. [00:56:00] But also you don't have to help these dip shits out. You know that, no one is obligating you to do this. We don't want to turn this into the woman's gotta fucking fix it. I'm like, no, let them, they're not wearing underwear. They shit themselves. That's on them. That's not your job. That's not my job anymore.

So I could see some of that, but I also think she kinda likes it a little bit, you know, like making a plan and all that kind. Like she's the one who, you know, we gotta go on a trip. She's packed three weeks ahead of time. And the boys are like, I packed. They didn't.

Claire: That’s like totally that cognitive labor thing. And how part of it is that she, the author doesn't like, people don't like to admit that they are adhering to gender roles. They just say, I'm just a control freak. So it just kind of, it is interesting, the narratives. We sort of tell ourselves about what we wanna do and then what we end up being tasked with.

Quinn: And there's ones that are detrimental that maybe you confront at some point or that someone confronts you with. And then there's sometimes you gotta tell yourself shit to get through the day or raising children. And I think that's okay too, is again, as long as they're not harmful to other people.[00:57:00]

Claire: It's very frustrating when you are like doing the oldest sibling, older sister thing with aging parents and they raised you up to be incredibly competent and also empathetic. And then they don't play along when you're like, Hey, I've done like a lot of investigation about how this is absolutely the right thing for you to do right now.

And they are like, you know, thanks, you know, and then just fall down the stairs, you know, so you're invigorated in a weird way 'cause you're like, why did I do so many things right and well? When apparently nobody else is, like what is that is John Goodman gif, Does nobody give a fuck about the rules around here? Like, that’s me kind of right now.

Quinn: Does that make you revisit like a lot of childhood adolescent, you know, early twenties shit, where you were the rule follower girl who never got in trouble?

Claire: Yeah, I would say so. I mean, not like my brother was wild rebel, but I think he has some kind of spectrum, like touch of tism, kind of thing. So he got treated [00:58:00] accordingly. And I was just a very obedient kid when they were like, Hey, you should take the SATs a second time to see if you can do even better on math. You know, or hey, like you should apply to Harvard, Yale, and Princeton just to see if you get in. You know, and hey we think you should graduate in the top 20 of the kids. And I like did it for some reason.

Quinn: So you liked it.

Claire: Of course. 'cause I wasn't the kid who was like differentiating themselves by not doing that.

So yeah, now I feel like my curse is that I collect all this knowledge about how to make gentle or make convenient the next phase of life. And they are like not taking it, you know? And it is very irritating.

Quinn: You made this monster. And now you won't let it do its job.

Claire: Why did you raise me to be so competent and then to live here near you, you know? And we have this pretty good relationship, so what the fuck? Like all the pieces are in place.

Quinn: Right. I trained my whole life for this.

Claire: Yeah, exactly. Let me cook, but no.

Quinn: So what's the next step? Do you give up? Do you let them age in place [00:59:00] and keep falling down the stairs? What's the story?

Claire: Well, my friend told me because they live in a big old house that obviously hasn't been like, modernized in decades. And my parents, my mom smokes cigarettes and my dad smokes cigars. So like that probably, you know, is not great. And so my friend told me as a real estate perspective, she said, walls and floors are the easiest things to update for a house, especially if there's not wallpaper on the walls to repaint everything.

I said, what do you do if you don't have time, but you do have money. She was like, just sell it as is basically, and make the price lower and understand that you're gonna have a lower price. But moreover, I said what do you advise as an older, as me, as a me? Because she had just done this with her own dad. She said, be as hands off as possible, but it's gonna fucking suck. And she said, tell your parents like I'm doing this for all of us and it's gonna be really stressful. And she talked about a company called Two More Sisters. 'cause their mentality is like, what do you need in life when you are like going through something hard, like two more sisters to help you out?

Quinn: I love that.

Claire: They do a lot of hands off I don't know, [01:00:00] I think purging the house and putting things up for sale. I'm not there yet. I just sent my dad an email saying I talked with my friend. She told me some stuff. Let me know when you're ready to talk about it. And he said, okay. So that is where I am currently. But it was sort of bracing in a weird way to be like, told there's no way to get out of the shit ass part of it. I need to hear that sometimes. I'd rather hear that than be like, here's some bullshit fucking shitty, stupid bullshit ways that will help you avoid paint, you know?

Quinn: Yeah, I think different things are helpful at different times and different stages and different situations. I mean, I remember once when our oldest was, I don't know, man, year and a half, two, whatever. And he wasn't even like screaming and crying, putting him to bed used to take two and a half hours because he would just drag it on in this way and Dana would like cry herself to sleep every night.

And eventually she was just like, I'm not doing it. And then I was like, well, well, I don't wanna do it. And we just remember at this one point having this I don't think we can both opt out of bedtime. I think we actually have to do [01:01:00] this. And knowing it will change, but we can only affect it so much. But it's gonna continue to suck.

And yeah. That's interesting. You know, obviously it's a lot harder though with older parents 'cause you're just like, oh, you're just not gonna do it. I did all this stuff. And you're just like, Nope.

Claire: My friends who've been there, my friends who haven't been there yet, say have you tried this? Have you told them that? Have you set up this? And I'm like, yes. And did nothing. And my who like have been there, don't ask have you tried? You know, or have you done?

Quinn: Mo. They're like, have a drink. It's like when we were having our infertility issues and people are like, have you tried wine? And you're like yeah. We just let it happen. You motherfucker.

Claire: Yeah. So anyway, Steve is just in, he is in Phoenix right now and he doesn't talk as much with his parents, but it turned out his dad had a significant illness for which he went through several rounds of a certain kind of therapy and they didn't tell Steve, their only child 'cause they didn't wanna make him worried.

[01:02:00] So, you know, he'll come back from that and we'll find out, you know, what's up. So, you know, that's another version of, sorry, I don’t mind laughing.

Quinn: Oh yeah. No, you, but you have to, you're just like yeah. Let's circle back to the Holocaust real quick. Something a little lighter. No yeah. It's frustrating. It's exasperating, you're like, I'm a professional person. I'm managing. You're like, I started a fucking parenting, like I'm doing, let me do this. This is what I do. And they're like, Nope, we're not gonna listen to you.

You're like, but it affects me. I'm not doing this. Like you said, I'm doing this for all of us. That's what they don't understand.

Claire: No, I have a lot of feelings about Boomer generation as a whole right now.

Quinn: Oh my God.

Claire: But hey just, they're just happy where they're being talked about. So I don't wanna give them the satisfaction as my dad would say, I forgot he used to sit next to famous people on airplanes a lot 'cause of his work. And he just would, you know, do a lot of frequent flying, first class kind of thing.

Quinn: Sure.

Claire: And there'd be times where he didn't want to that he knew the person was famous because he didn't wanna give them the satisfaction, which [01:03:00] is so petty and Chicago.

Quinn: There are layers to that girl. Yeah. Yeah. That's outstanding. I mean, ask him to explain it and he's like, how much time do you have for me to explain to you why I do this thing?

Claire: Yeah. Can I say one thing that I do recommend about bedtime? Now, I don't know if you even need to do this, but I think a lot about how much, how ironically, despite my love of reading and writing and how important reading was to me as a child and how important I think it's for kids. I hate reading to my kids at bedtime.

I just hate it. It is just like the thing I don't like, I'm too tired to do. I'd rather walk two miles than read to my kids for 20 minutes. I do read. Not to them.

Quinn: Not as like a team sport.

Claire: No but now we do what you could consider parallel play, but it's parallel reading where we, you are welcome to sit next to me in bed and we will read next to each other.

Quinn: I have been looking forward to reading to my children since I was like 12. And I love it. But [01:04:00] there's also nights, again, like any notion of me gentle parenting has clearly gone out the window nights when I'm like, Nope, I'm too fucking tired. They're like but we left on a cliffhanger.

I'm like, it'll still be a cliffhanger until tomorrow when if you go to bed in less than 45 minutes, we might have time to fucking read. But when we get to and I'm up for it, oh man. I love it. We're currently doing the most recent Wild Robot. Wild Robot Protects, and the sequel to the House by the Cerulean Sea, I think it's called Somewhere Beyond the Sea. And those are fucking fantastic books.

Claire: I got a book based on a 13-year-old girl's recommendation. She thinks every 13-year-old boy should read it called the Pretty, the Prettiest. And it's a book about a list that goes around the school ranking girls in terms of attraction. And my friend's daughter said, I think every boy should read this.

I'm gonna see if I can read him one more chapter to entice him. He’s meh so far, but we'll see.

Quinn: Is he like, I'm gonna start a list and pass it around the school?