Where Else Can You Get a Dollar Fifty Hotdog and IVF Medication?

Quinn: [00:00:00] I have hidden a lot of Dogman books in a closet in my life because I just, I needed a break.

Welcome to Not Right Now, the podcast about parenting through all of this.

Claire:We'll be talking about slash crashing out over topics like mental health and gummies and wine and perimenopause, and just giving up.

Quinn: Or not. Don't give up yet, until you get the pop-up notification about democracy. When you are truly for once, just trying to be present with, I don't know, man, whatever your kid is trying to tell you that you don't understand. Or care about, or you're not allowed to say back to them. It doesn't matter. It's not an advice show.

Claire: It's a you're not alone and you're also not crazy for screaming in the shower kind of show. I'm Claire Zulkey from Evil Witches.

Quinn:And I'm Quinn Emmett from Important, Not Important.

Claire: You can find details on anything we talk about in the show notes or at our website, not right now dot show.

Quinn: Dot [00:01:00] show. And if you like what you hear today, please share it with a parent who needs it or who might laugh and tell their kids to be quiet. And then drop us a nice little five star review.

Claire: And reminder, you can send questions or feedback to questions at not right now dot show.

Quinn: Hey it's Quinn, obviously We have a guest today again, which is really fun. Our guest is L'Oreal Thompson Payton. She is in Evanston like Claire is, she's a bestselling author, an award-winning journalist. She's a keynote speaker. She is a mom. She runs an independent bookstore, which is fucking awesome.

And she's a total blast to talk to. We cover everything from bookstores and having a toddler to IVF and all kinds of very interesting stuff like that, that people don't talk about enough. Please enjoy this one.

Claire: Quinn, tell L'Oreal about the brain fog that you encountered this morning that you were texting me about that she might appreciate.[00:02:00]

Quinn: Oh, just typical, like my wife's outta town, so for a week and a half. And basically my sleep gets progressively worse over that time because I'll do dumb shit, like stay up and work and all that stuff. So stayed up too late, at 4:00 AM one of the children needs Motrin for a phantom leg cramp.

Do that, dog starts barking, the whole thing. Anyways, I'm tired and I was like, oh, let me look up L'Oreal's bookstore. I wanna see what the story is before, before we record. And in between that thought and typing it into fucking Google or whatever we're using these days, and it popped up and it said, oh, it's in Evanston.

I was like, oh shit. Claire lives in Evanston. I should tell Claire about this lady. She would love this lady. It's at this point it's like 12 minutes until we record. And I was like, God, I'm getting dumber every day.

Claire: Thank you for thinking of me though.

Quinn: You are totally welcome. I was like, Claire's got this new Evanston newsletter and this lady has said her bookstore. This is gonna be great. They're gonna love, they should talk. Fuck.

Claire: May I spill on your behalf, [00:03:00] L'Oreal, I don't, I have it in mind. Maybe you've already forgotten it. But talk about the opening day, I think you had an opening day like bookstore snafu where you forgot to order something very key.

L'Oreal Thompson Payton: Yeah. No. The Kamala Harris memoir was like the week that we opened or something like that. And I did, and several people called and I was so embarrassed to be like so sorry. But you live and you learn and I've since gotten better at pre-orders and everything. I made sure we had the Tarari Jones kid book in stock because I knew that would be a big one as well. But you know, you live and you learn. I thought it came out in November. Apparently it came out in September.

Quinn: They're the same thing, by the way, September and November, there's no difference anymore.

Claire: Did either of you guys read that book, by the way? I have no thoughts on it. I'm just asking.

L'Oreal Thompson Payton: I listened to the audio book. It just made, and I had to wait a while because initially when it came out I was just like, I'm not in the right head space because I'm so angry at this current administration. And it just would've reminded me of everything that we could have [00:04:00] had. But then you add toward the end of it, like when you, 'cause it's, I like the way they formatted it in terms of it literally starts on the hundred seventh day and then it kind of like counts down to the election.

And then shortly thereafter she'll be like October 16th, you know, like 12 days to the election or whatever the math is. It's not my sweet spot. And yeah, it was a little depressing. But yeah, I mean part of history. So I felt like I had to.

Claire: I am not ready to revisit that. And also, I don't think I'm even willing to talk about Kamala Harris as a front runner for whatever the next, what are we, 2028? What are we looking at here? I just, but it's not 'cause of her. I just am like, it's too fresh or it's too painful. I don't know. Quinn, have you read that?

Quinn: I don't know if fresh is the word. I just think everyone is like somewhere between shattered and raw, like at all times. Like I go back and forth between like Little John coming out when they were doing the state roll call and yesterday, basically. Like those are where my feelings go most of the time.

[00:05:00] So no I mean, I haven't read anything that is like remotely intelligent or provocative in 10 years at this point. Because unless it's like directly my other work related, like I, it's just, it's the day job. I'm too tired.

Claire: Yeah, no, I get it. I am thinking for fun about reading a book about the Challenger Disaster, just 'cause it's outside my bedroom right now. I'm like, that'll be sort of light compared to everything.

Quinn: Can I just real quick preface this conversation. All I want to do is talk about the bookstore so we can totally talk about other stuff, but while we're talking you should know that's all I'm thinking about. That's it.

L'Oreal Thompson Payton: And that's where I am. So it's very fitting. And in case customers walk in, I might have to be like, Hey, this is working life.

Claire: Tell us about the genesis of the bookstore, and that's not like what we had top of notes. I warned you, we are kind of loosey goosey with the topics, but you must know how hard it is to run a bookstore and to be, to run a brick and mortar store as an author yourself, as a person. So what led you to decide, despite everything I [00:06:00] know and don't know, I am gonna open a real live bookstore. Tell us how that came about.

L'Oreal Thompson Payton: I actually just wrote a very lengthy newsletter post about this for a colleague Lex Roman, their newsletter Revenue Rule Breakers, and I put it this way: a desk of delulu, astrology, and just a lot of fricking hard work. I mean, as a writer, as a reader even, going back to when I was a kid, just love books.

I have a picture, my first book of me and my sister on the sofa. I'm like three and a half, got a, what's it called? Like spiral notebook on my lap. And I'm writing, I love Berenstein Bears, Goosebumps, Sweet Valley High, all these things, but didn't really see like black girls portrayed as the main character.

And that's what sort of sparked my interest in writing because little L'Oreal was like, I'm gonna grow up and I'm gonna be editor-in-chief of a teen magazine and you know, like change the world. Spoiler, never got quite that far. Did [00:07:00] work at Teen Magazine and other magazines. Started off in journalism and was always like, oh, one day I'll write a book. And so in that same kind of philosophy was like, well, one day maybe I'll open a bookstore. Right? Remember all those memes? It's like the feminine urge to open up a bookshop that doubles as a coffee store and a flower shop or whatever. That was a dream. That was the retirement dream. I went to Cafe con Libros, intersectional bookstore, intersectional feminist bookstore in Brooklyn back in 2018 or 19 with a couple of friends.

We did like a Brooklyn bookstore crawl and went in, fell in love, and I was like, this is what I wanna do. I wanna have a tri-story like first floor coffee shop, bookstore, second floor coworking space, third floor yoga studio. And then I just put it on the back burner. And I was like, well, one day. And then one day became last year, like opening a bookstore was not on my 2025 Bingo card. However, I was not getting offers [00:08:00] for full-time roles that I was interviewing for. And at the same time starting to teach yoga at the Ox Wellness Collective where the bookstore is now housed. And was like, well, what if I just did a popup or something like that? And the owner was like, well, we have this open retail space if you wanna check it out.

And it was love at first sight, put up the crowdfunding campaign, raised like $3,000 overnight. And then we got to 11,000 by the end. And so it was just like, oh, we're doing this. And everything just came together. So. I would say easily, but there is an ease about it that I feel like only happens when you are working in alignment with your purpose. And this is very much what I feel like I'm supposed to be doing. I'm supposed to be writing, I'm supposed to be gathering people together in this space. That's just like the power of words and storytelling and community. Even at a time where books are under attack, DEI is under attack. To have a space that's boldly proclaiming no, this [00:09:00] is what we stand for is my piece of resistance. So that is the long and short of it, of how Zora's Place came about.

Quinn: How much writing are you actually getting done while you're running a bookstore?

L'Oreal Thompson Payton: None.

Quinn: Perfect, check. But wait, was that your expect, was that your expectation or where you're like I'll get a little done?

L'Oreal Thompson Payton: Yeah. I was like, I'll write when it's slow. And then a bookseller friend of mine, actually Eve Ewing, who's a co-owner of Build down on the south side of Chicago, is like, well, you don't want it to be slow. You want people, you know, to come in. And I don't think, and naively I will admit that I am definitely one of those people who glamorized the idea of owning a bookstore. I think, as you know, many of us do without realizing how much of the, how much admin goes into it, and just like the promoting of it all, and the inventory, and just like all of the logistic parts, I feel like honestly my reading [00:10:00] even has declined since opening a bookstore, which is really embarrassing. But my audio book usage is on the rise 'cause driving, but Claire, you know, Evanston, everything is 10 minutes away, so it takes me like a month to finish one book.

Claire: No, there's, I have a friend, my friend Kate Harding, she owns Jarvis Square Books and because she's a standalone space, I think she deals a little bit more like foot traffic, like rando foot traffic than you do. 'cause the Ox is sort of like a one big building that houses a lot of different places, which is nice for you that you don't have to cite this one spot.

But she talked about people coming in and getting into fights with other customers 'cause they were accusing them of selling Little Free Library books. Things like just kind of think like crazy things like this where, you know, people have weird opinions and things like that. Yeah.

This is sort of a lady question, but I can only imagine, I don't know about Quinn. I dunno if guys feel this way, but I live in sweats, I rot all the time. I think about this version of myself where I'd put myself out in the world wearing [00:11:00] nice clothes, real shoes, real pants. You have a reason to be out in the world and present yourself.

And I'm just curious if so far you feel good about the bookstore L'Oreal who like, you know, I imagine like kids run in and see you and you are like a doyen of the neighborhood and a taste maker. How are you feeling about your clothing options and your styling options as that front facing person?

L'Oreal Thompson Payton: Well, it's funny that you asked this today of all days because I'm literally in a yoga set, got my sweatshirt on, the like Black girl version of a messy bun and tennis shoes, because I'm teaching a yoga class tonight at the Ox. I don't have any events or like forward facing besides this, but I figured since it's about parenting that it would be, you know, safe space. But that is definitely something that I had in mind, especially because I haven't worked inside of an office since March, 2020. When that role went remote and then I was freelancing and I left Fortune right before they went to [00:12:00] hybrid. So I was, I was also living in sweats and yoga sets. But now when we have events and things I put forth a little more effort. I try but it's still, I'm still building out my wardrobe. I feel like, you know, kind of quote post pandemic postpartum. And just also figuring out like what this version of me, like what my, I've never been the most fashionable person. Like I will tell you that straight up. Jeff, my husband is the more, he's the fashionista out of the two of us. But I try some days, but most days this is, what you see is what you get.

Claire: Well, fortunately, like yoga wear is the shit, and it is what people wear. So, you know, you are on point. So you're doing a great job. Tell the people who are not listening, who don't know you, how old your child is and what the state of the union is on her, what she's into these days?

L'Oreal Thompson Payton: Yes. Whew. So much energy. So Violet's four. I joke that she is my assistant store manager and junior [00:13:00] bookseller, except it's not really a joke, like high key I really do feel like she thinks that the bookstore belongs to her and she just lets me like babysit it during the day while she's at school. It's funny, when she comes in, she does a little bit of rearranging and I will, so like most of the times on Saturdays when she is in the store, we're closed Sunday, Monday.

And so when I open back up on Tuesday, I'll find post-it notes in random places or like lollipops and she's decorating, or for some reason now Toni Morrison is in the romance section. And I'm like, well, that's okay. But yeah, she's got her little stool and, you know, she makes sure that, you know, it's up to her standards. So very much into reading. Loves books. The apple did not fall far from the tree. And Claire, I think I mentioned to you that one of her first temper tantrums on record was about not going to the library because I made the mistake when she was maybe about 14, 16 months, something like this, somewhere between one and two [00:14:00] and had mentioned like, Hey, I gotta go to the library to drop off these books before, you know, we go get dad from the train station. And I knew in my mind that I meant I was just gonna put them in the shoot and go about our merry way. And so once we pick up Jeff and we get back home and she realizes we didn't go into the library, it's a problem. And so I just told Jeff, I was like, you start dinner, I'm gonna take her back. We're gonna go there.

And even last week we were at the library and she did not want to leave. And I had to coerce her, I was like, yo, dad forgot his keys. Like we literally have to go let him in. And so, I mean, of all things like that's great, right? That she's really into that. She loves art. She wants to be an artist when she grows up, this week at least. That's how we ended up going to the library. 'cause her favorite babysitter had a painting at the Black History Month exhibit that was up there. And really into science too. Yeah. The planets, is she's telling me things that I didn't even learn. So she's just very into it all, loves school, [00:15:00] loves learning.

Claire: That's amazing. Don't let anyone, maybe you've already, maybe you, this is outta your hands. Maybe you can help it. But if someone tries to give you a kid's science kit, don't, just hide it. Don't let her open it. You know what I'm talking about Quinn, with the powder?

Quinn: I do, but I mean, look, here's my policy. Like great, L'Oreal, one thing we've talked about here is to fight screens, which again, not organically bad, it is like any technology, the way we use them or program to use them. But my wife and I realized we gotta offer alternatives, right? Because we just kept saying no and it wasn't working.

So if there's a science kick to be had, that's fine, but at the same time, the same rules apply. There's no fucking slime in my house. We're not doing that. Like this powder shit, you guys are cleaning the whole thing up and are they only getting halfway through the kit? Of course. There's no version of them doing the entire thing much less in one sitting, but so I dunno. The point is I see both sides of it.

Claire: I'm just saying science can be done outside of the house. You know, you can do it [00:16:00] at a museum. There's kids learning places. I'm just saying there's a time and a place for science and those kits, those like National Geographic kits are not it. Go to Dave's Rock Shop, buy a geode. That's fine.

Quinn: I am gonna send your kids so many science kits.

Claire: I'll kill you.

L'Oreal Thompson Payton: Someone got her one of those, you mentioned the National Geographic one. It was like the marble kit or something like they glow in the dark and on the box it says, you know, for age like eight up or something like that. Someone got it for her third birthday. It was good friends of ours.

And I know for a fact, this is no shade, but like I know that the husband picked out the gift and not the wife because. Of course he did. But she loved that thing. But yeah, to the point of like screen time and offering alternatives, I realized that we are the alternatives. So it's like reading 10 books a night.

We are also her like play partners. Yeah. There are times where we're like, we probably should have just transferred the two embryos at one time. So she would have a built-in play partner and it not be us. 'Cause it gets exhausting. There's so many [00:17:00] rules. They have so many rules to their games and the characters, and I've never done so many voices in my life. But she just has a big imagination. So I'm like, all right, I guess this is what we're doing.

Claire: Yeah, I have a friend who has got an only child daughter and same thing where it's like you're the employees of this child. 'cause they don't have someone else to boss around or to boss them around. And so you have to eat what they make or follow the rules that they have. I wanna ask about the embryo journey, especially 'cause Quinn has some perspective on it, but real, first of all, we did talk about earlier how book tantrums are not as soul destroying as like a screen time tantrum or like a candy tantrum.

You know, spoiling your kids with books is like not as shameful as spoiling them with, you know, I don't know what, Robuck’s or something like that. But I just wanna know whether Violet likes any books or series that you were like, we could be done with this. And I wouldn't mind, anything that you are, you know, all books are great, but are there any that you're like, we could be, like, for me it's Stick Dog. I don't know if you're familiar with that series?

Quinn: Excuse me, [00:18:00] what's it called?

Claire: Stick Dog.

Quinn: Ooh, I lost the s the first time. you said it.

Claire: No, it's not Dog Man. It's called Stick Dog.

Quinn: Is that a grocery brand of Dog Man?

Claire: Kind of, it is basically like a dog and his dumb friends, and they're always getting into trouble and Stick Dog can't believe that his friends are so dumb. And I feel like that's kind of the gist of it. And I, well, anyway, that's my, like I'm done with this one. Are there, does Violet have better taste than that? Are there any ones that you're, you could hide forever?

L'Oreal Thompson Payton: For the most part we're good. But there is actually the one that she picked out to read last night that my sister-in-law got for her. So it's one of those like personalized books. So it has Violet and her cousin and it is the longest fricking book. And it's not even good, like the writing, they didn't write it, it was just like, you know, you send in their information, they make the book and all, but it just is so long.

And I know she picks it because it's long and she gets to, you know, procrastinate bedtime a little bit [00:19:00] more because she is smart in that way, not so much books, but TV shows. If we could never watch Super Kitties ever again or Paw Patrol, I would be happy.

Claire: That is so true about the personalized books and we have one of those, and I am sad that my kids have a long last name 'cause it was like one for every letter of their name and you're like, I'm gonna, this is, you know, like D is for the Dogfish. Anyway, it was pirate related. It's fine. Quinn, how about you guys?

And then I know your kids are like slightly older so you don't really have to worry about reading to them as much, but anything from your memory?

Quinn: I still love my kids, Claire, so I still read to them every night, unlike you. I look forward to it. One when I'm reading they usually do not feel the need to ask me questions. So it's a break for both of us from the questions. And two, I, yeah, I get something out of it. I think it's meaningful for my relationship with my children, Claire.

No, shit that they could be done with, I mean, definitely got, look, here's the deal. Whatever gets kids reading [00:20:00] don't care. Like truly whatever gets kids reading, I have hidden a lot of Dogman books in a closet in my life because I just, I needed a break. Did I like hand them Calvin and Hobbes as an alternative?

Sure. Are they comparable in some ways in tone? Sure. But it's just enough. But we've moved out a lot of that. Good news. We're in like a real Hamilton phase right now, so he is just like going through that book. My daughter's burning through every Babysitter's Club and Babysitter's Little Sister, and also she's discovered Sweet Valley High, which is exciting. And a bunch of other stuff. Some, we found a Greek myth book that is controversial and good.

Claire: Ooh.

Quinn: You forget. She's like, boy, Zeus has a lot of kids from a lot of people.

Claire: They love to rape and like beastality and incest.

Quinn: Yep. But we're committed to reading it, so, and yeah, so I dunno we're okay for now, but yes, I've definitely had a few like this where we could be done with this.

Claire: Yeah. It's an interesting time. My kid just read Wonder and L'Oreal, your daughter might read it [00:21:00] like before too long, but that's, I think it's an assigned chapter book a lot and both of my kids got super sucked into it. But like a weird side effect is that, I forgot how it came up, but there was a guy I went to school with who had a sort of craniofacial difference and my son was really wanting to know about that and wanting to Google him to the point where I was that might be a little bit untoward, but you know, like glad we're talking about books in our way. And the other thing that was funny is that we just got a copy of New York Magazine in the mail yesterday, and it's an interesting issue about what everyone makes, or they surveyed all these people, but the problem is that it's Manhattan. So my son was like, you can make $70,000 a year as a dog walker?! And we're like, yeah, but your rent is also like 2,500 a month. That's probably low for, you know, a zero bedroom place. Anyway, glad he's reading, glad he's taking things in, so L'Oreal tell us what the memoir you're working on and sort of what the state of that is.

L'Oreal Thompson Payton: Yeah. Very chaotic at the moment. So I'm writing an infertility memoir called Infertile [00:22:00] Black Girl. It'll be out with Beacon Press next spring, and it's kind of a mindfuck because we're also going under IVF for baby number two, hopefully. And so doing both of those things at the same time is just kind of like 10 outta 10 would not recommend.

It is just emotionally, physically, of course, but also kind of like I'm writing, I'm living this in real time, like writing it in real time and was telling my therapist, I don't know how this is going to end because I mean, first draft is due in July. And who's to say where we'll be by then?

Like we just had our third retrieval last week. And so, today or tomorrow should find out like, how many made it to day seven? And then they're off to genetic testing and then there's more waiting. And then there's, if we're lucky enough this time to have a genetically viable, like genetically tested normal embryo then there's two months of medication that I need to take to suppress the [00:23:00] adenomyosis that I have that I didn't know I had until last month.

Because this whole time, like from last year when we had couple of failed embryo transfers, the diagnosis was, or suspected endometriosis based on, you know, like the testing and all that they did except to go into surgery last month and then wake up and they're like, oh, well we didn't see any endometriosis.

And I was like, I'm sorry, what? I was so pissed. And then when they talk, because I'd never even heard of adenomyosis, it is just like a microcosm of the disrespect honestly, that people with, what's the plural of uterus? I don't know.

Claire: Uteri. Yeah.

L'Oreal Thompson Payton: Uteri. Okay. I didn't take Latin, so I wasn't sure. But yeah, the lack of research behind things, the knowledge and all of it. Studies that don't really do us justice. And so basically adenomyosis is endometriosis of the uterus. So instead of the tissue growing on the [00:24:00] outside and different organs, it's within the uterine wall. Most likely in people who have had a myomectomy to remove uterine fibroids, which I did back in 2017.

People who have C-sections, which I did back in 2021. And so it's just I feel like a constant plot twist in terms of what's coming up in terms of my reproductive health. And of course, you know, you have the advanced maternal age and all of that jazz. And also now Violet is at the age where she is cognizant of the fact that her friends all have siblings and has asked as much, well mommy, when am I gonna be a big sister?

And I'm like, well, you know, we're working on it. She's like, is it gonna be a boy or a girl? I'm like, well, I don't actually know. Like it's gonna be a surprise. And she's like, I think a girl and just went about her little, you know, 4-year-old business. But that is, yeah, something that is like top of mind.

'cause the clock's running out. Also the fertility benefits have run out. 'cause that's not really, it's I forget how much for lifetime coverage, but barely enough to cover [00:25:00] like one medication, you know, without insurance. So it's just kind of a, yeah, cluster fuck. Although Costco is gonna start offering fertility meds, which is awesome. 'cause I mean, where else can you get a dollar 50 hotdog combo and also IVF medication?

Claire: So not surprised.

L'Oreal Thompson Payton: Costco for the win.

Claire: Amazing.

Quinn: Well, thank you for sharing all that. It is a journey. Even if you're not writing a book about it, like you said, it's the, I would rather have a 4-year-old who's sweetly asking for a specific brand of sister than the fucking people who would tell us just go have a glass of wine and relax and it'll work out.

It'll be fine. You'll have more babies than you can count with. And you're like, well, I'm gonna kill you, so I'll take Violet. And her perspective on it all day. When, you know, your answer is just like Violet, it's whatever ends up in the shopping cart. We'll take whatever.

I remember with my now 13-year-old who was, you know, sort of our end of the road. We, you know, we, [00:26:00] you said it, I don't remember your wording for the advanced age pregnancy, but I remember the first time my wife, who I think was 34, I dunno, whatever. The first time we started going in for IVF stuff, when it wasn't working, and they used the term, I think it's geriatric pregnancy or something, and she was like excuse me.

L'Oreal Thompson Payton: It's so rude

Quinn: And that's, that's, like the first shot across the bow and you're just like, oh, okay. Got it. Right. That's what we're dealing with. And they're like, no, it's a technical term and you're like, still doesn't feel great. But yeah, I remember yeah, for, you know, we had all these miscarriages and IVF and like you said, our insurance didn't, this is 15 years ago.

Our insurance didn't cover anything, so it's every dollar we had and we never really got to the root of why it didn't work. We've some ideas, it was specifically not on my side from what you could tell was when they like combined ours, but it may have been like some environmental stuff she was exposed to.

Anyways, the point is like we had no idea. We had all these amazing doctors who tried so hard and [00:27:00] finally like you said, you can retrieve 50 eggs and three days later they're like, you have one and a half embryos. And one of them is very sketchy looking. And that was basically what my 13-year-old was.

They were like, look, you can put it in if you want. It's not great. Like on the chromosome stuff, they're like, there's no red flags. There's not a lot of like green flags here. They were like, here you go. Best wishes, see you never. And because of our track record and because of every scientific thing that we could pay for told us it wasn't gonna happen.

And because they were just like, this guy looks like a Picasso painting under a microscope. It's not happening. And then it does. And the same, that's where I get the people like, oh, are you excited? What's he gonna be like? I'm like, I don't know. I don't care.

L'Oreal Thompson Payton: Yeah, that, and that's similar to our story too. Violet was, the transfer for her is the one that we were just like, okay. 'cause the insurance at the time was like, [00:28:00] well you have to have, you know, two transfers with two genetically tested normal embryos before we'll cover the biopsy and the ERA thing to diagnose whatever is happening.

So she was the second of two. We, up until then, very naive and our like beginning fertility stage had told our family and friends, like each time we had a transfer, then each time having to not only be disappointed ourselves, but then also tell them, so this time we were like, we're not telling anybody, we're just going to get this over with so we can get onto the biopsy and just move on with our lives.

And then that ended up being the one that worked and we were like, oh shit. But I also feel like that is something that people don't talk about openly, at least that I've seen. And what I'm writing about in the book is like that's just the beginning. Like you think that's the finish line where it's yay, positive pregnancy. No, because then it's great, we need to have your HSG double within 48 hours, so you need to come back to the clinic on Monday for some [00:29:00] testing. And I'm just like, I don't know what these things mean and now I'm anxious. And that anxiety for me didn't go away because we have had so many failed transfers because so much had gone wrong. I spent the majority of my pregnancy just like waiting for the other shoe to drop, which is just no way to live your life. And yeah, the depression and all of it.

Quinn: Meanwhile you’re trying to bake this thing. Oh yeah. It's again, it's almost you know, the puberty stuff, it's like the baseline is, the hormones are insane and then they're putting more into you because they're like, we're gonna build this optimal environment for whatever you got going on. The number of shots is,

L'Oreal Thompson Payton: Yo, the number of shots in the ass.

Quinn: Outrageous. We had so many needles in our house. I mean, it was crazy. Oh my God. Yeah. It's crazy. And again, you're like, well then I'll just take it, if it checks these, you know, seven outta 10 boxes. Sure. Yeah. And the rest of our stories, we just we ended up we had him and horrific delivery and emergency [00:30:00] C-section and like wife and baby bleeding out type of thing.

So fun. She doesn't remember any of it. Thank God. I remember the whole thing. Which is the way it should be. And then I remember three months later again doing one of these checkups and they're like, well, listen, if you want another kid you should try now. And we were like, what are you talking about?

L'Oreal Thompson Payton: Yeah.

Quinn: But we did, we wanted a sibling if we're lucky. I mean, we didn't think a year before that we could have anything. And so we did another couple and it worked. And then of course we had a third one, sex one time while my wife was breastfeeding and had our third one, the surprise, sure, why not?

So we had three under three for a little bit and it was chaos. And again, we spent all of our money and did it. But I get it. At no point. Unless like the first round works for you, unless like you're one of those people, it's like, we had a little trouble. Here's a shot of chlomed. Congrats. You have twins.

That was not us. Like at no point do you feel confident that it's gonna work. So I can't imagine this journey you're on of, let me rehash it all and document it for this [00:31:00] little girl who I hope is leaving like closed lollipops. Claire and my kids, they would be open lollipops all over the bookstore.

But like how you do that and keep an eye on her while you're trying to do it again is just, it's incredible, frankly. But like you said, more people need to talk about it.

L'Oreal Thompson Payton: Yeah, no, I was telling, 'cause I remember our first radio and a colleague telling me like IVF is a full-time job on top of a full-time job. At the time I was working at a nonprofit and so yes, but also it was like just me and Jeff. Now it's a full-time job on top of a full-time job, on top of parenting. And that's a whole nother, and she's so inquisitive, so curious. So she sees me getting the shots, she tries to make me feel better and mommy, I'll hold your hand. It's okay.

I'm like, oh, thank you. Thank you, sweetheart. So she's not, you know, aware of why Jeff is just I give, you know, mommy her medicine. You know, she doesn't know she's an IVF baby yet. Of course we will explain it to her, you know, when she gets a little bit older. And just that [00:32:00] this is, you know, one way that people can have families. There's a lot of families look very different and we're fortunate within our like, friend circle and things that she can see that in action.

So it's like normal to her. Oh, this person has two dads, this person has two moms. Like this person just has one parent and by choice, and that's okay. So yeah, grateful for that, but oh my gosh, to do this, open a brick and mortar, which I'd never done before, and is a completely different beast from being a service provider, like a writer. And also IVF while parenting an existing child, like I recently wrote an essay for Self about secondary infertility and just kind of like that gray space that you're in where you don't fit into the like traditional infertility groups because you have an existing child. And at the same time, all of my mom friends are on their like second, third kids and they don't really get it when you're [00:33:00] coordinating the, you know, those early morning blood tests and monitoring appointments around daycare drop off and just like who's gonna watch her while we have, you know, the retrieval last Friday and daycare was closed. And thankfully we had friends who live in Oakbrook because of course all of the procedures are out in Oakbrook.

And it's just like logistical, kind of like nightmare. And so we've had to really rely on, 'cause we don't have family out here, Jeff’s from Ohio. I'm from Maryland. And so we've fortunately built this village around us that has been so supportive.

Violet was with our friends on Friday when I had the retrieval, and then I had another mom friend watching the bookstore while I was gone. And I'm just so grateful for the other moms, honestly. And then, like the friend where they had the play date, she like made me a whole care basket with like warm socks and a heating pad and spa headband and like face mask.

And it was just, I almost cried. 'cause the most thoughtful thing, and I'm that friend for other people. So be on, to be on the receiving [00:34:00] end honestly, it's a little uncomfortable because I'm like, oh my gosh, you did this for me. You shouldn't have, but I would do it in a heartbeat for someone else.

So it's also taught me to be open to help, to not only ask for the help, but to receive the help from me a lot of times is the hard part. 'cause people offer all the time, and I'm like, oh no, I've got it. But this has really forced my hand to the like, actually I don't. So if you could do this and you could do that, that would be great.

And people stepping up to the plate, I just, it takes a village truly in all sense of the word and in all of my like, different roles, you know, to raise a bookseller, to raise a mom, to raise the child for sure. And yeah, Evanston's a really great place to do that.

Claire: That makes me happy to hear. I think that it's so right about the learning how to accept help and to not like, to let it go, to almost accept it in a careless, I don't wanna say careless way, but that you're not keeping account necessarily like someone, this is before even like needing help, help.

But I [00:35:00] remember talking to a woman, Jennifer Goforth Gregory, I don't know if you know her, she's like in the freelance world, but she just like always is offering leads and advice and I asked her once what's your mentality on being, you're so helpful. And she said that, the way she sees it. The world has a bucket in the middle of it and you put as much as you can in it. And then sometimes the bucket empties on you. And that's the same way you put things in it. You let it come on you. And I don't know, I don't, I feel like I'm in this weird portal place with my parents and the caretaking and I think I used to really pride myself on being there for people and I don't, this sounds awful, but I'm not as much I think like right now. But I also am like, that's okay 'cause that's not my time for that. But I'm so, I think not until you have kids like I remember when my second was born, my friends, my mom's friend offered to come be with him. And I think she just wanted to hold the baby which is totally valid, grandma, you know, grandma privileges. But I think with my first kid, I would've been very worried about doing something noble or not even letting her help. And this time I was like, yeah, I'm gonna go get a pedicure. And [00:36:00] she, and I would've not have had the wherewithal to be like, accepting the help and then going to do something that I really wanted to do with it, instead of something that seemed, you know, I don't know. Righteous, you know, like deserving of the help. So I'm glad that the community has stepped up for you at least a little bit. But yeah, raising a kid and also being pregnant is or trying to get pregnant is a whole other ball of wax.

Quinn: I love you mentioned the logistics of it though too. Just like the flat out day-to-day stuff. Again, like once you have a kid where, you know, my, I remember one of my kids at one point, again they get it. We've told 'em they're fucking test tube kids. You're welcome. But I remember at one point, they're like, oh, and but you know, and the doctor like, you know, come to the house and do the shots.

I'm like, let me stop you all the ways you're wrong about that. I was like, you were made in like a closet on the side of La Sienca that we were late for every time because of this kid and this fucking traffic and this, like none of the, and then mom, and then they're like, congratulations it implanted, you're on [00:37:00] bedrest for two months. You know, or else it's not gonna work. And you're just like, okay, I guess I win. What the fuck? It's just, it's crazy.

L'Oreal Thompson Payton: It's so trippy.

Quinn: I really do believe if you don't continue telling that one, I don't think it'll necessarily scare people off who really want and are able to do this if they have insurance or not or whatever it is.

But they, Claire, it's you know, parenting your parents like no one told us about that part. And no one tells you about all that crazy logistical stuff and while the emotions are raging, and most of the time they're involved with disappointment, like you have to lay it out for people, you know, because if you're incredibly lucky and privileged in a lot of ways, there's, you know, a little Violet on the other side, like rearranging all your books. And that's the greatest thing. And then sometimes you're just still, what happened here? I don't understand.

Claire: The hard thing about I think between one and two or two and three is like you get so, you just have this one kid to base it on, and I remember being like, what if this second kid sucks? Like we, there's no way he can [00:38:00] compare. And you know what? He does suck in his own way also like he's really, people get a huge kick out of him. I'm glad that other people enjoy him very much.

People like the story about him being an asshole to me about books from a couple podcasts ago. But I, one thing a friend told me that had never been in my, like this perspective before was that she had a miscarriage between pregnancies and this may sound flippant or not, but of course your first instinct is like the tragedy of it. And she said, actually, I'm more annoyed that we have to start all over again. We have to you know, we had this all going. And I was like, that's never not something that I considered before. In addition to the sadness and the loss, just like starting the clock, starting the whole process all over again.

Quinn: Because it, you know, it's like I've had kidney stones a bunch of times and people always like, what's it like? I'm like, it's apparently it's like having a baby except it's like an asteroid and you don't get a fucking baby at the end. Like you said, you're restarting the clock, which never ends by the way. Now you have a baby to deal with. But at the same time, it is, you look up and you go, oh wait, the clock's [00:39:00] back like a year effectively. Like it's the whole thing.

L'Oreal Thompson Payton: And I'm such a planner that like, and of course nothing in IVF ever goes according to plan. So it's also very humbling in that regard. And I've had to learn a lot through therapy and Zoloft about releasing control and you know, just trusting that what will be will be. And it is so hard. So hard. And I was telling a colleague the other day, 'cause I thought I learned this lesson, you know, the first time around when we had Violet and now it's the universe is testing me in a different way. But yeah, it's just kind of, you are all over the place and I want so desperately. Like I also want her to have a little sister selfishly because I have a little sister and she's my best friend.

And just be like, you know, so cute. But yeah. But just like all of that is just out of your hands, out of your control. It's like a Type A person's worst [00:40:00] nightmare is IVF, because even with the retrieval last week I was supposed to be back in Maryland for the an AWP writing conference and also reading my children's book, the Amanda Gorman book at my hometown library for story time. And it was looking for a while, like the retrieval would be after that trip. But then of course it was like, Nope, actually it's gonna be on Friday. I had to cancel everything. Was just so annoyed because this also had happened in March, 2020 when we started IVF. I was supposed to go home for a trip and then it was like, Nope, actually this is when the retrievals gonna be.

And it's just like you can't, you don't even have control over like your calendar and it just makes you feel so helpless in the whim and mercy of your body. And I feel like there may be some people like, well, can you just reschedule? No, because everything is based on how your body responds.

Quinn: And then speaking to ticking clocks. Then they're just like, alright, we've got two. Would you like to put 'em in at 6:00 AM tomorrow [00:41:00] morning? And you're like, oh, this thing we've been working towards and now I got, hold on. It's like you said, Type A personality. I'm thankful I'm not, but I think back to all the shit my wife had to miss, whether it was just like, you're not allowed to fly. You gotta be on your back, you gotta be on this, and this. And that's when it's working.

L'Oreal Thompson Payton: Right, exactly.

Quinn: It’s crazy.

Claire: Tell me both you guys, 'cause L'Oreal, you, I mean, as we have established, you've got a lot going on and writing a book, especially a second. I mean, a second book is kinda like a second child, like where the first one you spent your whole life dreaming about it and putting all your life into it, and then, and here and then the next one you're like, I guess I gotta pull something together for this next one.

For both of you guys, what were resources out there that you either found helpful, either in terms of just like media or how to, or things that you really think missed the mark that like, because I'm just curious like what you guys liked found helpful, and then also L'Oreal, what was not there that inspired you to contribute something to the library of IVF?

L'Oreal Thompson Payton: I mean, I feel like I can answer the second one first, [00:42:00] and I just always go back to the Toni Morrison quote about if there's a book you wanna read that hasn't been written yet, you have to write it. And so much of infertility is white. Same with the wellness. Like, so you Google yoga teacher and it's gonna be some thin white blonde lady, even though that's not where yoga originated, that's not, you know, what it's rooted in.

And so there, in that same way, I remember when we were going through it, and I feel like now there are more diverse resources, but when I first started, all of the fertility groups were basically white women. All of the resources that you see, you go into the fertility clinic and the little like bulletin board of like success essentially. You know, there were no black or brown babies to be found. Right? And it is just like. Where do we fit in here? We're the only black couple in here. This isn't something that people have done in either of our families, right? So then you have the stigma culturally, [00:43:00] because it's well, that's not something we do. Or you know, the other stereotype about black women being super fertile. And it's like, well, not true in my case. And yeah, just wanting to honestly write like a love letter to that version of myself. And then also women who have reached out to me. I mean the DM or, yeah the story I get the most DMS about is the, one of the first ones I wrote for Self about like lessons I had learned after four failed embryo transfers.

And I can imagine that like someone's Googling two, three o'clock in the morning after a failed transfer themselves. They find the article, they look me up, they find me on Instagram, they see Violet, and they're like, oh my gosh, like you kept going, like it worked. And so just wanting to provide not only that, you know, sliver of hope but also the real shit about how, you know, getting the positive pregnancy isn't the end of the finish line, about perinatal depression even.

Because there's so much focus on postpartum that I like naively didn't even [00:44:00] consider, like you could be depressed while pregnant. And the PTSD of it all with infertility and like the mental health kind of component. I mean, I failed, well I should reframe 'cause my therapist is trying to get me to, she's, you can't fail. But the, you know, postpartum depression screening they do in the hospital I did not score very well. That's again, the Type A, straight A student in me. And, but I told the social worker, I was like, you know, it's fine. It's okay. Like I'm gonna double up on therapy. It's totally fine. I have a plan. But I couldn't therapy my way out of this.

And at the six week follow up, I failed again. And the OB was like, you know, I can give you something for this. And I was like, oh no, you know, it's okay. I'm in therapy because like at the same time, plot twist, we're still living with my in-laws in Ohio because we thought that moving to Ohio in the middle of a global pandemic was a good idea.

But just intended to move to Columbus, the housing market is trash. And so I'm living with my in-laws while pregnant and then also postpartum. And so that anxiety and again the [00:45:00] cultural stigma around you know, that's not something we do or you don't need that you know, it's gonna hurt the baby 'cause you're still breastfeeding.

And so went two more years being this hot, anxious mess before finally saying yes to the Zoloft and wanting to talk about that openly because, and once I did it was like, oh my gosh, like all my mom friends are on some kind of medication.

Quinn: Oh yeah, once you start asking. Mm-hmm.

L'Oreal Thompson Payton: Yeah. So yeah, just wanting to write that book be a beacon of light, hope, but also like reality. And then as far as, resources in writing. Wait, was it resources in writing or like resources in fertility? I forgot the question.

Claire: Oh, just whatever, anything that you found either helpful or like coldly unhelpful as a resource when you were going through it. Like what, you know, if there's anything that you would recommend to other people that was out there besides what you are creating.

L'Oreal Thompson Payton: There is, 'cause I also taught yoga for fertility at Pulling Down the Moon here in Chicagoland area. And so also as a certified yoga instructor, the melding [00:46:00] of those two worlds was very actually a gift honestly, to be able to hold space for these women who were going through something so difficult.

And I think there were four of the ones in my original cohort did go on to have kids. So to feel like you played like a tiny bit of role in that or you know, were able, it was more of a support group than a yoga class. Honestly. There was just like a little bit of yoga at the end and so that was really helpful.

But what I advocated for while I was there was like, this is great and all, and still kind of like inaccessible to most people. You know, like six sessions is like 200 something dollars. And again, it's just full of white women. There are some Southeast Asian ones. But then when we joined forces with this fertility clinic in Atlanta and started an app and now we're like more virtual, I advocated for one of those yoga for fertility classes specifically for women of color because of just the experience is so different. There is that cultural [00:47:00] element to it too. And just to have a safe space for us to talk about that. And actually in communication with two of the women who are in that group still, we have our little like IVF group chat. One just had her baby.

The other one is unfortunately on her like fifth IUI I think. But as I'm writing this book, I'm thinking of them and what I would've wanted to know back then. And then just the resources that are available to, yeah, hopefully make the journey easier for someone else.

Claire: That's great. And I know they have yoga groups like that for like postpartum women. And I didn't join, find a group like that. I think I kind of made mine online basically. But like having those touchstones is so important. And I just wanna give a shout out also to Zoloft on my end. I'm, first of all, I'm thrilled that postpartum survey actually did something and flagged somebody like the way it's supposed to do.

'cause thank God, I feel like I hear so much about it not doing shit. But when I was pregnant with James, my second one, my therapist clocked me for being depressed. And it also was weird 'cause you're like. [00:48:00] I don't know. You're like, I can't be depressed and pregnant at the same time. And she had this, yeah, she had me start the day after he was born. I remember like I got a sleeping pill that night and the next day I woke up and 'cause I asked them not to bring the baby to me but I got my sleeping pill, had my night to sleep, and they brought me my anti depressants, I feel like it was very literally transformative you know, 12 hours or so.

But Quinn, how about you guys, was there anything that you guys found either helpful or enjoyable or frankly absolutely unhelpful when you guys were going through IVF stuff in terms of knowledge or support, things like that.

Quinn: A universal experience for everyone who goes through it, but two very different experiences between myself and L'Oreal. I'm the guy here in this situation. Straight white. We had money to keep doing it. We spent all of it to be clear and then had to figure out how to then afford the kids we made in Los Angeles.

So that was an adventure. That was fun. We left eventually but also different experience. 'cause truly it was 15 years ago. Like there, [00:49:00] a lot has changed and a lot hasn't. I always talk about there's an author, her name is Cat Bohannan, and she wrote this really great book called Eve, How the Female Body Drove 250 Million Years of Evolution.

It's fantastic and it's actually much funnier than you think it be. And she's great. I had her on the show too. But she makes this point that I think people are aware of, but not like in context, which is Homo sapiens is like tragically relatively bad at pregnancy and especially delivery compared to even like chimps.

Our closest mammals, like the trade-offs we made to are, have made it a disaster even now with all this technology and all this again in the 15 years. So they used to have to, and I think it's possibly different now they can do a blood test for some of the chromosome stuff. They used to have to pierce the embryo for some of this stuff.

And they were like, trade off is, we might, you know, send it packing. When we pierce this thing, we're not, probably not, but there's no guarantee here and we can't find everything, this and that, 00:50:00] some real changes for sure. But either way, again, like you said, there's no finish line.

You know, you're obviously, we certainly got to the point and we try to be this way as well and with a world like this where we celebrate every positive milestone where we can. But I don't know. I've already said the most unhelpful people were, there were probably good natured and well intentioned people who were like, you guys should take a trip and have some wine and relax. I think there's probably a world where you could be a little more considerate and think about what you're putting out there for folks, maybe they've already tried that. Maybe that's a little insensitive. But. We had a good group. I mean, my wife is a very proud workaholic. She, I remember vividly her opening her laptop on our honeymoon, and I was like, fascinating.

Very interesting. And she delivered our first kid. It was fucking brutal, like I said. And then we were in the hospital for a week or two afterwards and all this stuff, and she went back to work like two weeks later she was running a TV show and she both [00:51:00] wanted to but also had to, the network she was working for finally agreed to back up a trailer so that she could, you know, breastfeed the kid, which she really wanted to do.

Which not everybody has to, formulas fucking amazing. That was more difficult than it should have been. All the, all of these things that I will hopefully continue to push for everything in sort of my other work. There is a very intentional and destructive hole around women's health consideration and welfare and research that is centuries and decades old and still going on in a lot of ways.

Like even endometriosis, you know, the amount of money that goes into researching that is, is nothing or fibroids, right? I mean, it's crazy. So as usual, this is one of my meandering answers of I don't know what I would find helpful because I have it as easy as someone could have had it and would have it if I tried again.

So I would like to hope that the society and culture and infrastructure around it becomes drastically easier, whether you can make a baby on the first try or [00:52:00] not. Because here's the thing, a lot of people end up with not, it's really hard. It's really hard, or you can't afford it or you can't afford to even try in the first place.

You're like, why would I even bother to do this? And there's a real certain amount of support those folks need as well to realize they can't do that. You gotta deal with that. You know, it's hard.

L'Oreal Thompson Payton: Like the Reddit threads that are like one and done and not by choice that I've been like poking my head in every so often. Because, you know, my anxiety likes to plan for the worst case scenario. And so yeah, that, and like you said too, just the affording a kid in 2026 or multiple, it's like, what are we gonna do?

And I'm still, you know, an entrepreneur and you know, like it's not quite Los Angeles expensive, but like Chicago, Evanston is not cheap either. And so just like the reality of all that and what do we do, is this selfish also given that the world is on fire and like all of these things to consider, which my therapist is like, okay, you know, a calm down and breathe. And then two, you know, [00:53:00] like we need the good people to put more good back into the world and we just, you know, do the best that we can to make it better for our kids and the community and, you know, all of the people coming after us. But, you know, someone certainly isn't making it easy these days.

And I just remember crying literally the day after the 2024 election. I mean, I didn't have kids back in 2016 but still devastated. But this was like a different kind of devastation. And I had the, like the thankfully older man at the reception desk of my daughter's preschool was just like breath. He has a child who you know, we had parented through that first term and everything. And it's just like, you know, the power is at home, we're the ones educating our kids. We're the ones kind of on the front lines and you know, we'll do what we need to do. So if that's running for office, if it's, you know, joining the PTA, if it's you know, whatever that little bit of like activism looks like in [00:54:00] your neck of the woods. But then also remembering that this too shall pass. Our ancestors lived through much worse. And so not to be completely hopeless and that's yeah, been helpful.

Claire: And you were doing that by having your place. And I just wanna say a cute story that just was so heartwarming, L'Oreal. So we list events from her bookstore in Raising Evanston, the newsletter that I edit. And L'Oreal writes for the newsletter as well sometimes. And she said with her daughter, who had seen Zora's Place event in the newsletter and her daughter interviews about what they love about business owners. And then we ran the piece and the mom was just texting me all these wonderful glowing things. And it was just such a, like a sweet, organic, you know, like circle of community. But regarding kind of in between the places that live of logistics, your favorite, and community, I'm just curious, some things you've learned about throwing events at your bookstore that you would, if someone, if you were to speak to someone else opening their [00:55:00] own little bookstore like yours and they were hosting events, what's something that you've learned about do's and don'ts about throwing something like that's kid friendly?

Quinn: Sorry, are the events, did you always want to do events and do you find as the business owner that they are necessary and then you put Claire's questions on top of that.

L'Oreal Thompson Payton: Yeah, no, definitely necessary. Especially, you know, as Claire mentioned, we are kind of off the beaten path in Evanston, so not a lot of organic foot traffic. So events are the way to bring people in. And then again, selfishly, I mean, I'm someone who just builds the things that I want to see, you know, with my books and then also the bookstore.

And so many of the story times that are during the day when, you know, she's at daycare and I'm at school, and it's like, well, what about, you know, the parents who work and can't do that? And so having the weekend ones, bringing in the authors and having specifically, I didn't share this deliberately at the, not deliberately, but like, but all, like 99.9% of our books are by black [00:56:00] women authors. There's a few by black men in the children's section specifically because I want our young boys to have representation as well, but all of the books face out so that they can see themselves on the covers in the you know, in the pages, they're at their level.

So they have some, you know, autonomy over which books they want to pick out and read. But then having the authors in so that they can see, okay, not only is this book about a black child, but now there's this black author who, you know, that's a career path or something that maybe I might be interested in doing.

That's honestly selfishly for me to have been the best part about having my children's book and going to different schools and just answering their questions. I mean, some of them are like, how old are you? Like 38? Oh, I'm like, okay. It's not that old, but, you know, if I'm five, I guess that would be.

And then yeah, having, you know, we've had one open mic so far. I wanna have more. I had some writing circles here. Again, selfishly because I needed to work on the [00:57:00] memoir. I kind of overdid it in February with the events. Like I feel like a good sweet spot is four to six events a month because it's just me in here.

Last month we had about 12 and someone was like, oh, for Black History Month. And I was like, that was just on accident. Every day is Black History Month in here, Women's History Month, you know, all those things. And on the one hand it was a super profitable month, and on the other hand I was burnt all the way out. So I'm still trying to find that like happy medium. But yeah, it's, I'm very much in my throw spaghetti at a wall era and see what sticks, what resonates with people, what they wanna see. And then, yeah, just programming for our kids, especially families, just like something free and fun you can do because there's not like a ton of that out in the world. Wanna start doing like some family yoga and story time, some like craft-ternoon sort of things. Just again, yeah, trying to meet the community where it's at.

Quinn: I am glad you brought up the point of doing it while [00:58:00] acknowledging again, like the lesson of well, well, parents are working. Like when am I gonna like it? No one considers that for anything ever, whether it's your HOA meeting or city council or whatever it is explicitly designed for 65 to 75 year olds to be able to attend.

And that's where we are, you know? Any of your favorite events from the past six months, like three months, whether it's like a format or a specific author or kind of book where you're like, that was meaningful to me because this is my bookstore. Or, and, or it really worked out.

L'Oreal Thompson Payton: Yeah, there's a picture from one of our very, I don't know if it was the first official story time that we had, 'cause we had a few popups before we actually opened, and I forget who it was. I think it might have been one of Violet's friend's parents or something who took the picture. The bookstore is packed. I'm sitting on the sofa with the book we're reading. Violet and her friends are also on the sofa and it's just looks like, and [00:59:00] there's two moms talking in the corner and it is just this is what it's all about. It's that community aspect to it. Bringing people, different walks of life together.

The children being able to run wild and free. There's a little station by the book section, the children's section that has little Abacus and I print out some coloring pages for them. There's crayons, there's building blocks so that even on a random Tuesday afternoon, someone comes in with their kid, they can be entertained while they’re grown up is shopping. There was a baby in here the other day who almost took their first steps and I was like, oh my gosh.

Just so adorable. I remember the first popup story time that we had, because I think in my mind too, I was just like, Evanson doesn't have any black owned bookstores. I'm gonna open a black owned bookstore. And was so like focused on our, you know, like city lines and everything. And there was a mom who came in from Gurney, which I'm still not entirely sure where that is because my Chicagoland. So, yeah, it was like [01:00:00] not close. And I didn't know this until later, but one of the investors who we had an open house at the Wellness Collective was coming in for a tour and talking to other people and was like, yeah, I meant to tell you.

After that story time, I was in the parking lot and I saw that mom and she had two daughters, two little black girls, and she had asked them like, okay, do you know why I brought you out here today? And I think the littlest one was like, story time. And she was like, well, yes, and also wanted you to see what's possible when you like dream big and work hard.

Quinn: You overheard that?

L'Oreal Thompson Payton: No, no. Someone else overheard it and then told me. And I tears, immediate tears because I'm just like,

Claire: You did it.

L'Oreal Thompson Payton: That's what it's all about. And then offer events. I have so many well, formerly Twitter friends, RIP, we've since, you know, moved on to other platforms who have books coming out.

And one of them, her book is all about black women in wellness. So in addition to being in the bookstore, being in the wellness collective, like they go hand in hand. And having these, it's happened at a couple of our different [01:01:00] author events, but like intergenerational conversations among black women.

So you can have a 25-year-old and a 65-year-old and a 75-year-old, and the same, studying, sharing their stories. We're all crying. We're all just like learning so much from each other. And it's that when I look out into the audience in those instances where I'm like serving as the conversation partner as well, I'm like, this is what it's all about.

This is what I wanted, this is what I dreamed of. And just like the ripple effect hopefully, that it'll have. I mean, I've had seniors, women from Oak Park, like in their sixties coming in here and being, and thanking me for opening this space. And I'm like, well, thank you for paving the, you know, the way and just being like at the forefront.

And then actually one of my favorite ones might be Glennette Turner Tilly, who is local to Wheaton. So maybe about an hour or so from Evanston. She had left a message. [01:02:00] And said I'm this you know, 92 or 94, right. I can't remember how old she is. But she had written different books and she had a Harriet Tubman book coming out, a children's book and asked me if I'm really to partner with her for a virtual book launch of sorts.

And I posted it on Threads because I was just like, oh my gosh, this woman is goals 'cause I wanna be in my nineties, you know, still putting out books and doing events. And it was just, I feel like I was interviewing a future version of myself and talking to her and she was so grateful, but I was grateful to her and like she had, she has children. Yes. But like the children of the kids that she taught and their grandkids, like everyone was on this Zoom call and it was just so beautiful to witness.

Claire: That's great. I love to hear that.

Quinn: Incredible.

Claire: If people are in Evanston or nearby who are listening, are they able to order books online and then go pick them up at Zora's Place? If they wanted to get the next Dog Man book or whatever?

L'Oreal Thompson Payton: Yeah, we do take special orders. So books that aren't on [01:03:00] our shelves, they can certainly special order and when they come in they can pick 'em up from the store. And for people who don't, you know, necessarily wanna come in or don't live nearby, we do have a Bookshop.org storefront where we still get a percentage of the sales as well. So that's another option.

Claire: Okay, that's great. Can I ask you guys a completely unrelated question that has nothing to do with books or children or getting pregnant or anything like that?

Quinn: Can't wait. This sounds like what my children ask me.

Claire: Well, I texted you about this coin earlier, but L'Oreal, maybe you have a perspective on this as well about food. I don't know if you have noticed this based on the stores where you do grocery shopping, but the compostable produce bags are not it for me right now.

I was just cutting up some really rubbery celery and I'm just wondering what you guys are doing for food storage right now when it comes to produce in your fridge, when it comes to like leafy greens or things that have to stay crisp.

Quinn: I forgot about that text. My first instinct is we have had this fridge for 10 years and I don't know or [01:04:00] trust why the CRISPR drawer works as well as it does. Things stay fresher much longer than they should. It's very unclear to me. I don't put 'em in bags. I pick 'em up from their store. I try not to use the little fucking plastic bags anymore.

I put 'em in the drawer and I go back out a week later. I'm like, Ooh, these collards have been out here. They look perfect. This is great. I'll make them, unclear to me, the magic. So I wish I had a better answer for you. I'm not doing anything on purpose

Claire: Maybe the compost hostable bags are doing harm. I don't know. L'Oreal, have you experienced the same?

L'Oreal Thompson Payton: I did not, as you asked that, I was like probably should be eating more leafy greens.

Quinn: That is not what this show is about, please.

Claire: That is the show, we actually get everyone on to make them figure out what they’re eating.

Quinn: Yeah. Yeah. How dare you?

L'Oreal Thompson Payton: No, but we are a big fruit family. That was something no one told me, like the fruit budget for having, and I love fruit. Anyway, that was like my one craving when I was pregnant. But now, like Violet and I on our own will go through a box of the three pound grapes from Sam's Club in a week.

Every week I need to go on our like grape and apple run, [01:05:00] but shout out to their grapes because they are so crunchy. And a good crunchy grape is hard to find. Trader Joe's is hit or miss. Yeah, they're consistent.

Claire: Are they green or purple?

L'Oreal Thompson Payton: Green.

Claire: Okay. yeah. That is the one thing that you can't trust, like a shopper, you know, if you're doing grocery pickup to do is like they, yeah, you have to squeeze those grapes and make sure it's like a good firm crispy grape. Otherwise it's just garbage. But you know, when you have a kid that's eating fruit, you have a kid that's pooping and that is like a win.

Quinn: That's 70% of tummy troubles right there. It's just like the doctor's like, when was the last time you pooped? They're like, I don't know, October. And then you're like, well, there's your answer. Go home and have an apple.

Claire: Yeah, Paul's eating cuties right now, which I'm pleased about. Like that. He's doing it at his own accord. We have a, you know, he's also in the land of fluffing his hair up. There's a lot of this going on right now, but also he's segmenting oranges.

Quinn: The fights we have about hair are never ending.

Claire: Anyway. We'll save that for another time. But L'Oreal anything else you wanna [01:06:00] mention, plug, promote that we didn't cover? I think, you know, we need to let you go and tend to your customers and have lunch and eat the good grapes.

L'Oreal Thompson Payton: All the things. Yeah, no, if you're in the area, definitely stop by. We're open Tuesday through Saturday, 11 to five, all the info on events and everything's on zorasplace.com. We're on Instagram primarily at Zora's place. And yeah, come out, support, share, tell a friend.

Claire: We'll tell everyone Yeah. Quinn, anything before we say goodbye for today?

Quinn: Nobody cares what I say. Thank you though.

Claire: No, we don't. You can't spell meandering without man or men.

Quinn: Perfect. Perfect.